Looked at a 200K mile E300D today

Somebody stop me - I just might buy it.

It's a '95, 200K miles, owned by a mechanical engineer for 5 years and the last 100K miles. He runs Amsoil and changes the filters in 6K miles, and the oil in 12K. Seems like a stretch doesn't it? But this guy is definately into this car and has a good tech taking care of it. He has all the records since new.

Issues: Not much. There are 2 rust spots that have me a little concerned though - perforation under the hood, in front of the wheel arch and in back of the headlights. In the corners up against each fender (both driver and passenger sides).

A couple places on the body have bubbled paint. One is creeping up from the lower cladding, another near the antenna base.

All paint is original, no body work, no accidents. Interior clean. Overall this looks like a 50K mile car. I starts and drives as it probably always did. The suspension seems original and is pretty soft, but it's roadworthy.

My questions are this: I know these engines can go a lot longer - but what about the rest of the car? What's it going to cost to run this car 5 miles and another 100K? And can I really be sure the engine will go to 300 or 400K miles?

What should I pay? He's asking $7500, I don't plan to pay that - but he's not going to take $5K either, that much is clear.

Thanks a lot!

Mike

well rust always slows me down. i cant quite tell from your description, is the rust all confined to the dog house? if so it occurs to me that the front may have been crashed. i think that rust for this year of mb must be pretty rare. this owner sounds pretty concientious but what about the previous owner who may have done the first 100k.

i dont know the book value on the car but the rust would knock a lot off the value for me. if you are going to just drive it a lot of miles and not get too worried about making it look new then the rust can be turned into a good bargaining chip. but to fix it right will be expensive.

i have always found the idea of changing a filter wo changing all the oil a little weird. so when i use the synthetic i just go 5000 and change oil and filter.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

"doghouse" - that's a new one on me. What I'm referring to is a horizontal area about the size of my hand just in back of each headlight. There appears to be a spot weld there, and each is rusted to about 3 inches in diameter, with perforation about the size of a nickel to a quarter.

No evidence of an accident, and the owner seems pretty sure of that.

Other than this corrosion - no evidence of a rust problem anywhere else on the car that I've been able to find yet. The trunk looks great, the tops of the window frames are great too.

Thanks for the response!

That sounds like the radiator support. If you see welds and rust.. it HAS been wrecked at one point. This doesn't mean "don't buy the car" but have someone who knows what they are doing take a good look at it. Look to see if the VIN tags are on each front fender inner lip.. if not they were replaced and the car was whacked pretty good.

is perhaps an antiquated term. it referrs to the two front fenders, the grill and the hood, which used to be removable as a unit on us built cars. i suppose when removed they made a good place for dogs to live, too.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Does he base 12K mile oil changes on oil analysis? It might be worth sending a sample of the oil he has in there now to be analyzed before making a decsion. I don't think a PPI will tell you the condition of the engine to the extent oil analysis will. Bear in mind you'll need someone intimately familiar with the OM606 to decipher the oil analysis results. The results don't come back to you with a thumbs up or down conclusion

Things I check are color of brake fluid and color of coolant. Lots of discussion on the using Prestone with an MB aluminum head. It's worth running MB or Zerex G-05 just to avoid the topic with a potential buyer.

Do all the ACC and electrical features work per the owner's manual? Problems in those areas will nickel and dime you to death if you have a shop fix them.

Transmission service history? 200K miles is the high side of the life of an MB 722.3 or 722.4 transmission. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker but consider that a cost to factor into the car's second 200K miles of ownership.

Sixto
95 S420
87 300SDL

There are rust perforations under the hood? There is bubbled paint around the antenna and coming up out of the body cladding? My experience with bubbling paint is there is rust underneath and it is 10X worse than what you can see. Do you live in the rust belt? Maybe you are used to seeing cars like this. With rust bubbles like that the car will look like a heap in less than 5 years unless you have it taken care of. And done right that won't be cheap. I would pass. There are too many good used MB's out there with less rust for that money. RT

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When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K

You should take into account that I don't live in rust country, so I don't have to settle for such a car.

That said, I would not touch this car with a ten foot pole. Not only is it rusted, but it has not had adequate oil change intervals to make for a long lasting engine. Since it already has what would probably be half of its engine life behind it if it had seen frequent oil changes, it probably has more than half behind it.

On the other hand, since it's already rusted out, it might not last long enough to need another engine anyway. I wouldn't buy it unless I could get it REALLY cheap!

Good luck,

Not to sound argumentative - but I've lived in New England for 47 years and I always drive older cars - I know rust when I see it! This car does have 4 exterior spots of superficial rust - surface rust actually from slight chips that were not taken car of and moisture got under it. Each of these spots is roughly 1/4 to 1/2 inch in size, and again the metal is solid but moisture is under the paint and bubbling it.

The 2 perforations under the hood had me more concerned and I took a very hard look at the rest of underbody. Believe it or not the rest of the car looks really good - no rust or corrosion. The 2 perforations underhood are not structural, and are very localized and I think I can deal with it pretty easily.

The oil in it presently has 10K on it and I'm sending it for analysis. The "oil geeks" on the Bob Is The Oil Guy diesel oil forum really didn't have any problem with this interval, which surprised me too.

I can take this car for $6500 if I want it. I'm having it checked out by a local ex-MB tech. Assuming the car checks out, do you still think this is a bad move?

Mike

Don't pay any attention to anyone here who wants to discourage you from buying the car based on the oil change intervals. I know there are lots of experienced, knowledgeable people here such as Larry Bible, but I was able to go 8K miles with Amsoil on my good old, unrefined, OM617 engine in my '84 300SD, with a filter change at 4K miles - supported by oil analysis. That OM606 engine in the car you're looking at is a lot more refined than the OM617, produces much less soot and should be able to do over 12K miles between oil changes with Amsoil very easily. In fact, there's a forum member here who once sent out an oil sample from that same engine and even after 9K miles, his oil was still good for continued use - with Mobil synthetic.

Also, there's another forum member here, Bill Brune who owns the exam same car as you're looking into buying. He and the original owner of the car used nothing but Mobil oil in it with 7K miles intervals. When he pulled the head at 100K miles, the valve guides and timing chain and engine internals were all perfect with nearly zero wear!! It was unbelieveable. I saw this with my own two eyes. I was so astonished I even took pics.

If you're getting confused on whom to believe - those with my side and those on Larry Bible's side - then, you already did the right thing to find out the answer by sending an oil sample for analysis. Just wait for the results.

I can't advise you on whether to buy the car or not because I don't know much about that chassis as well as the rust spots on it. From all that I've heard, the W124 chassis is pretty solid having been engineered in the '80s when MB was all about "quality and engineering first, cost second." But I would tell you that even if you pass on it, just make sure it isn't because of the oil change intervals.

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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

12k miles isn't that long of an intervial on a 606. Heck if it was a W210 with FSS that might not call for changes until 15k. Open up the oil cap and take a look inside, it should be pretty clean.

The rust would bother me, older MB's love rotting out behind the head lights. If it is still just surface rust then it can be fixed without to much trouble.

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I agree. They are asking top dollar for a less than top notch car.

Have a great day,

For a 10-11 year old car (depending on the date it was made) and it not being perfect from the description, I'd keep looking. It's worth maybe $5000 tops.

Seems too proud of what he has... look around for comparable vehicles on ebay, local newspaper, and AutoTrader.

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I'm not a doctor, but I'll have a look.

'85 300SD 245k
'87 300SDL 251k
'90 300SEL 326k

Six others from BMW, GM, and Ford.

Liberty will not descend to a people; a people must raise themselves to liberty.[/IMG]

Basing oil change intervals on inspection at 100K miles proves almost nothing. On any well built diesel, you will not be able to tell the difference at 100K miles whether it had 3K oil change intervals or 20K oil change intervals. Frequent oil changes only pay off for high mileage. High mileage on one of these engines is typically somewhere around 400,000 miles or more.

You can use synthetic oil in most diesels and change at 10K or 12K and run it to 200,000 miles or more every time unless something out of the ordinary occurs. Going to 400,000 miles or more is another story. That is why I commented that since he would be purchasing this car at 200,000 miles and it has not had frequent oil changes, he can expect fewer miles remaining in this engine than if it had seen frequent as opposed to adequate oil change intervals.

Oil analysis is a fabulous thing to do. What it won't show is microscopic particulate. It will show whether the additives have depleted or if moisture has accumulated as well as whether lubrication properties remain. Microscopic particulate causes timing chain stretch, camshaft and component wear and engine bearing wear acceleration.

The difference between frequent oil changes and extended oil changes is not a DRASTIC difference in typical engine life but it is enough to consider.

Again, if you're buying a car to run to high mileage, and I would assume that is what you are looking for when you buy a 200K mile car, an example that has seen frequent rather than adequate oil change intervals is more desirable.

Pay me now or pay me later.

Have a great day,

I'm always enlightened by the discussions on this board. My thoughts:

Owned by mechanical engineer - Big deal. Isn't there a story about the shoemaker's children not having decent shoes? My other obsession is with Porsches. Most classifieds I read talk about being owned by a doctor. Again, so what, these guys don't maintain their cars any better than the rest of us. And no offense to doctors engineers.

200K - That does sound like high miles, but really the decision should be all about condition. I would want to check out the motor and transmission. Are there service records for the car? Perhaps oil analysis would tell you something. Perhaps a compression check, I'm not sure. I would worry about the condition of the maintenance items like tires, brakes, motor mounts, shocks/struts and suspension parts. If all of these things need attention then you could be in deep quick.

$7500 - Sounds high to me given the miles, but not knowing everything about the condition it is hard to tell. I think $8000 should buy you a nice 95 E300D with 120K-150K miles and no major issues. But at $6500 perhaps the car isn't a bad buy if the major service item stuff (see above) is OK.

Rust - I wouldn't rule out the car if it has one rust bubble. I have a bubble on my left front fender, just ahead of the wheel well. My thought is to have the area repaired and repainted. Sure check out the entent of the cancer, but I don't think one rust bubble means the car is ready for the crusher. I've seen a number of 300Ds and 240Ds running around town with some rust spots and their owners don't seem to mind.

oil change intervals Discussions about oil change intervals, dino vs. synthetic and brand of oil have been known to start fist fights. I change my oil and filter every 5K miles or so. I take my car to Jiffy Lube. I read on another posting that if you are looking to buy a used Benz you should only look at ones where the Benz dealer changed the oil. I think that is a bit much. Jiffy Lube is not the kiss of the devil.

I have 150K miles on my car. Most recently the exhaust developed a leak right after the cat converter but just in front of the pre-muffler. I did a search and that has happened to other 95 E300 owners. The cat and header pipe is sold as an assembly for $1800 or something crazy. I'm going to take it to a local muffler shop and have them cut out the rusty section and weld in a new piece.