SD manual transmission? - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

t walgamuth · #46 07-11-2005, 07:47 PM

i believe all that you need can come from the 240... not sure about the pedal cluster, one post above thinks it will work from the 240, i wouldnt be surprised but dont know for sure. your sd driveshaft will have to be shortened probably, or lengthened, not sure which. the speedo should unscrew from the auto and screw into the manny. the tach is i beleive unrelated to tranny function. the shift rods will also have to be shortened, probably... the would if you were doing a five cyl into a 4 cyl swap but since we're talking s class i am not sure how it will work out. the shift rods can be shortened by any blacksmith shop... the driveshaft will need to be done by a shop set up to do that.

one thing i will tell you is that a five with manny tranny will not shake like the autos... i guess because of the heavy flywheel.

boneheaddoctor · #47 07-11-2005, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

I've also heard that the flywheels were different, and that although they are interchangeable as far as the bolts holes lining up, since they are balanced differently they shouldn't be interchanged.

Mike

Thats true but try and find a real 300D manual flywheel....very, very rare.....would be nice to borrow one and have a machine shop match the balancing. But a lot of people have done it without any real problems....but then how much different is the balancing and how long would it take to cause a problem? Thats an interesting question.

iNeon · #48 07-11-2005, 11:16 PM

good point, doc.

that being said, how long would this swap last? would the increased weight wear the clutch abnormally fast?

t walgamuth · #49 07-11-2005, 11:27 PM

i have stated this three times already. i have held the five flywheel in my hot little hands. it is not balanced in any special way. it is totally symetrical. as is the 240 and the 280 flywheels. all interchange. i dont know for sure but they may weigh different amounts. the clutches and pilot bearings also are interchangable. i was planning a 300 turbo stick change and have collected the parts. i have included a flywheel and clutch assembly from a 280e. but several folks on this web have i believe used the 240 pressure plate and disc. i dont know if they are different but they interchange for sure. if someone wants, i can go get a 240 and a 280 flywheel and weigh them.

they are all totally symetrical and no special balancing is used.

boneheaddoctor · #50 07-12-2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

i have stated this three times already. i have held the five flywheel in my hot little hands. it is not balanced in any special way. it is totally symetrical. as is the 240 and the 280 flywheels. all interchange. i dont know for sure but they may weigh different amounts. the clutches and pilot bearings also are interchangable. i was planning a 300 turbo stick change and have collected the parts. i have included a flywheel and clutch assembly from a 280e. but several folks on this web have i believe used the 240 pressure plate and disc. i dont know if they are different but they interchange for sure. if someone wants, i can go get a 240 and a 280 flywheel and weigh them.

they are all totally symetrical and no special balancing is used.

These are balanced at the time the engines are assembled and mated with the egine its balanced to. differences will be measured in grams...not pounds. A machine shop has the means to determing this and at what points the weight needs added or removed.

THe Gassers I can't comment on but the Diesel flywheels are a balanced item.

CannonBall · #51 07-12-2005, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

No you don't HAVE TO HAVE an entire donor car for a manual trans swap, but without it you will have a cobbled together, jerry rigged mess. The trim plates will be different, the hydraulic line and driveshaft will be cobbled up and you will have a heck of a time getting a flywheel that will result in proper engine balance. The pilot bearing will also be a challenge.

Also the shifter rods will have to be cobbled together and who knows what else. That's why I would not do one without a donor car. It can be done, but will be a serious PITA and probably turn out looking like something put together with baling wire.

Have a great day,

Ok, not identical, but I used a 240d pilot bearing on a 116 617 engine, so that's not a problem. The manual tranny will bolt up to the engine no problem. The fly wheels off the car with the manual can easily be balanced. Actually, the swap of a 4-speed into an sd probably wouldn't be too bad.

The clutch, pressure plate and all the bearings can be bought. Just grab the tranny, x-member, slave cylinder is on the tranny, x-member, shift rods, driveshaft, pedal, blah blah blah. Just look at what tom J, rleo and grimgaunt did. It's really not that bad and can certainly be done without appearing "cobbled" together. I mean my SD master cylinder already has the nipple for the clutch line. It seems like you're just trying to talk the guy out of it...what do you want all the 240d donor cars to yourself?

Furthermore,
T Walgamuth, the 240d flywheel is NOT symmetrical, nor is the 617 auto flywheel. I literally JUST did this swap and had a machine shop match the balance of the manual flywheel to the auto. They don’t put witness marks on there for no reason and see all those randomly placed holes around the side? The guy at the shop was saying Mercedes would put the flywheel on and drill holes in it to balance the rotating assembly, instead of balancing it without the flywheel and then putting on a symmetrical one. The shift rods were shortened with a chop saw a welder and grinding and they turned out great.

Enough people have done the swaps so you can pull everything you need. I would recommend a donor car but it’s not a necessity. I did a similar swap but slightly less complicated of a 617 from a 116 into a 123 with a stick, I farted around a lot and it took right around a month, maybe a little less. This includes full time work, a surgery and graduation from college i.e. many days wasted in a drunken stupor and many mornings spent curing hangovers. Good luck, it’s not easy but if you really want to do it, you can preserve the reliability of the car, have a nice daily driver and have fun jamming through the gears.
-Nate

t walgamuth · #52 07-13-2005, 12:12 AM

you sound like you know what you did. but we found no sweet spot on mine. it will fit any way we tried it. the flywheel is balanced yes. but it is not balanced with the crank as some engines are. it is just balanced to itself. imho.

t walgamuth · #53 07-13-2005, 12:31 AM

i remember some facts:
1. we have converted two 240 auto s to sticks. no special balancing. just removed the auto "flywheel" and bolted on the stick flywheel. no problem.

2. on my 240 with euro 300 stick we had to replace the crank because the front was buggered up by improper installation of the harmonic balancer (by po). we got a crank from an older us 300 nonturbo motor and installed the flywheel. we had been told that the 300 flywheel was balanced with the crank by one source so we agonized over the installation because we were afraid that if we put it on at random it would vibrate. there are twelve holes in the flywheel so you have 12 possibilities, eleven would be wrong if the above were true. after looking and looking and looking and trying every hole we just bolted it on. works fine. smoothest five i have seen. much smoother than any with the auto. the heavy flywheel smooths it out. it is symmetrical. if mb had made them not symmetrical they would have made mating marks. there are none.

CannonBall · #54 07-13-2005, 12:46 AM

There were witness marks on my manual flywheel/crankand if you read the RLeo tranny swap his also had witness marks. Perhaps it's a model year thing, but something that someone doing a swap should take into consideration none the less.
-Nate

t walgamuth · #55 07-13-2005, 08:55 AM

i dont know what they are. factory marks? we found none.

when you take apart something and put it back together it is always recommended that you put things back the way they were. if possible. head bolts back in same spot, etc. and in this sense i would, if taking a flywheel off a car and putting it back the same way, well, yes, i would. so marking everything makes sense when that is the case.

but in the example we are discussing you are not putting anything back... you are putting a fllywheel onto a crank that had an automatic. and i am telling you there is no right and wrong way to do it. the flywheels are balanced unto themselves only. put them on any way... it won't matter.

i was told otherwise, but found it to be incorrect.

boneheaddoctor · #56 07-13-2005, 09:23 AM

My understanding is the marks are very difficult to see, if they still remain....

these cars are all older than 20 years old now...a machine shop will prove this...as like I said the differences will be measured in grams....it won't be neutral balanced like many cars are.

Now if a machine shop verified it was infact neutral balanced then I might accept that....but all indcations are thats not the case.

t walgamuth · #57 07-20-2005, 01:30 AM

my machinist could find no marks. and could find no differences in weight. he installed it at random because of the above. the car is perfectly in balance. no shaking, no problems.

where are you getting your information?

i have personal experience with three installations. all flywheels installed at random and no problems.

again, i ask where are you getting your information?

you are falsely informing people who are anticipating a problem that you are describing

which does not exist!!!

boneheaddoctor · #58 07-20-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

my machinist could find no marks. and could find no differences in weight. he installed it at random because of the above. the car is perfectly in balance. no shaking, no problems.

where are you getting your information?

i have personal experience with three installations. all flywheels installed at random and no problems.

again, i ask where are you getting your information?

you are falsely informing people who are anticipating a problem that you are describing

which does not exist!!!

Have you proven with a machine shop that these flywheels are neutral balanced? NO.....you can't do this at home...and you don't need an imbalance bad enough to shake the fillings out of your teeth to do damage.

You will not even feel an unacceptible imballance...

Believe what you wish....but there is a caviat with just slapping one in..

A proven example...FYI ...take the crank pulley off a Honda B16 engine and swap with a D16 one..or use an aftermarket light weight or underdrive pulley..you can save about 15 lbs of rotating mass....but the imbalance from removing that weight will have the bearings trashing themselves in 10-20K miles....you feel no imballance and in fact experience quicker reving....the flywheels however are neutral balanced on a honda.

A Chevy 400 ci Small block has a flywheel that is not neutral balanced...and I believe certain mopars do also for an example.

If they were not balanced the Euro 240D and the Euro 300D would use the same flywheel...but they don't.

Cannonballs proof of the difference in a Auto flywheel and the 240D flywheel as verified by a machine shop that rebalanced it is proof enough.

If the manual unit was neutral balanced..then so would the Auto unit be neutral balanced.

t walgamuth · #59 07-20-2005, 09:27 AM

i will be interested in knowing the process by which the shop supposidly balanced the flywheel to match the flex plate.

just because they said they did something and they charged him for it does not mean that they accomplished anything. i can't imagine how one would somehow transfer the balance from a flex plate to a flywheel.

the flywheels are different in weight not in any special balance.

boneheaddoctor · #60 07-20-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

i will be interested in knowing the process by which the shop supposidly balanced the flywheel to match the flex plate.

just because they said they did something and they charged him for it does not mean that they accomplished anything. i can't imagine how one would somehow transfer the balance from a flex plate to a flywheel.

the flywheels are different in weight not in any special balance.

Its a porportional thing...one side will weigh more than the opposite side...that difference can be applied against another even if heavier wheel....

same basic process crankshafts are balanced to... the fact the auto setup was not neutral balanced as proven by the machine shop is enough for me....take a 240D flywheel to a machine shop and have them check it....I bet its NOT neutral balanced. Its easier to find one of those than a 300D wheel...thanks to DHL losing my entire manual conversion shippment I do not have one on hand to prove this.

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