I would swear I saw a 300SD W140 on my way home from work today.

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87 300D 265Kmi
Factory rebuilt crate 603.96x engine at 200K

Not like an SD is a real runner... I have to be careful just pulling out in traffic. But on the freeway it is nice.



Also, those cars have that five speed trans as I recall so they have a lower axle ratio too. 3.36:1 sticks in my mind.

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I'm not a doctor, but I'll have a look.

'85 300SD 245k
'87 300SDL 251k
'90 300SEL 326k

Six others from BMW, GM, and Ford.

Liberty will not descend to a people; a people must raise themselves to liberty.[/IMG]

You probably did, they were made in 1992-1993, but they had the same 3.5 engine as in the 1994-1995 s350.

__________________
Mercedes Fleet:
2004 CL600 Designo Espresso SPORT
2004 S600 Designo Espresso SPORT/Lorinser Pkg.
1999 S320
1988 300TE
1972 280SEL 4.5
Diesel Fleet:
2014 GL350 Blutec
1987 300SDL Blk/Blk 4 place seating #18 head
1987 300SDL Smk Slv/Burgangy #17 head
1986 300SDL Blk Pearl/Palomino #14 head w/ 280K
1984 Lincoln Mark VII Fact BMW Turbo Diesel

Did you purchase a diesel Passat then? If you're still interested in a W140 diesel, I actually own one that needs a new engine (check out my signature). That project [of fixing it] was stalled as I spent $$$ fixing my 300SD after the accident with the deer. Anyway, if you really want it, I might strike a deal with you. Furthermore, my Blue 300SD will be going up for sale soon too. Let me know.

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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

The S320 is a better version then the diesel. The M104 I6 makes more power then the 3.5L 603. It also has not major flaws or failings. Coupled to the 5spd tranny it is probably a lot faster then a 350SD. I know one will walk away from my SDL without working to hard. (seat of the pants feel, never raced)

Not to mention fuel consumption is about a draw. A proper tuned S320 will return very high 20's on the highway. Since the 350SD is a pretty heavy car with a relative small engine I can't imagine it will do much better.

S350D 150hp
S320 230hp
S600 400hp (the best choice!!)

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Want the land-barge W140? In diesel form? Expect to get bit in the wallet. Someone here said the best W140 is a rebuilt one. Concur. If you must have a W140, Hatterasguy is right -- pick the S320. Robust engine. Choose this and your only worries will be all the complicated and, with age, inevitable failings of the accessories. I love diesels and I'd avoid the 350.

As for the Passat, are you looking at a new one or an older one? If you're over $10k, I urge you to consider the W124 E-Class models. Solid, reliable, M104 engine and extremely well developed. It's MB engineering at its finest for Passat prices. Win-win.

If land-barge is your style, more power to you. If otherwise,check into the W124 E-Class (1987-1995).

Best wishes for an enjoyable automotive experience -- whichever way it turns out!

DSLPWR

Hello Richard...

I have been sufficiently warned and scared off the 140 Diesel.

Would rather look at your 300SD. The Passat's all went for way over what they were worth IMHO, as gas (premium) was over $3.00 a gallon at the time.

Now that it is down to $2.39, I hope the crazy premiums associated with Diesels come back to reality.

-gil

Sorry to tell you this but it doesn't seem like the high prices of diesels will come down significantly for a while. People are now very much aware of the increased efficiency of diesels over gassers (30-40% depending on vehicle) and the vulnerability in the nation's gasoline supply to slight disruptions. Come next summer, and we will all witness sky high gas prices, not quite $3/gallon levels but well over $2.60/gallon I'm sure.

As for those advocates of the S320, a diesel will always be cheaper to maintain in the long run due to lesser sensors and parts that require replacement such as spark plugs. Also that S320 finds it hard to do better than 18mpg in city driving whereas the S350 diesel always breaks the 20mpg barrier even in the city. As for highway cruising, both cars will probably perform equally given the similar EPA highway mileage estimates. But hey, I believe S320s now cost less than S350 diesels, so an S320 may be a better choice. But then again, you still have to pay for premium plus deal with all those gasoline engine sensors. Hmmm....

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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

Sensors bah. My friends E300D is on its second or third MAF.

Spark plugs cost $2 each x 6 so $12 every 30k miles. Or glow plugs at $10-$15 when they burn out. (wash in my book) Filters cost about the same so does oil.

Air filters are a wash
So are oil
Serp belt is similer for both engines
PS filter is the same
Coolant capacity is about the same
Oil is 5w-40 or 0w-40 either way.

M104 parts are probably cheaper because MB made a heck of a lot more of them.

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Perhaps I should take back what I stated on the S320 about having more sensors as I am not so well informed on the workings and structure of that 3.4L Diesel engine in the S350. However, I made that statement based on my knowledge of the fact that the S320 goes through many of its idle control units, idle control valves, oxygen sensors and other sensors I assumed wouldn't be found on the diesel engine.

However, assuming both engines are equal when it comes to sensors and general maintenance, how is the timing chain / water pump change interval in the S320? I know the diesel has robust, long lasting components. Doesn't this 3.2L engine have the same flaw with regard to requiring premature valve jobs as the 3.0L unit in the 300SE/SEL of the W126 body?

If none of the above issues I raised are serious, then with the exception of about 2-3mpg less in city driving, the S320 may be the better bet. Then again with regard to that lesser city mpg, considering that diesel fuel is currently more expensive than premium gasoline and will probably stay like that for many years to come, that fuel consumption disadvantage may not exist after prices are factored in. Let's examine this issue fully, which is the better purchase, an S350 or an S320? I may be better off selling my S350 and getting an S320 afterall. I can repair my S350 and sell it for a bunch of money that would be more than sufficient to purchase an S320 in good condition, perhaps a newer one like a 1999 with eight airbags, stability and traction control, etc.

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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

The W140's got the M104 I6. The W126's were stuck with the M103.

The M103 is a single overhead cam I6, they are good engines but blow head gaskets and need valve jobs at somewhat low mileages. At least in W126's they seem to like to drink oil as well.

The M104 is a double overhead cam I6 that does not suffer from the M103's flaws. They do once in awhile blow head gaskets but that is rare and can happen with any car.

Water pumps a water pump they seem to last long enough. $266.31 for the S320. $62.81 for the S350D. So the water pump costs another $200.

Any gas car will need o2 sensors once in awhile.

Also the S320 has a 5spd the extra gear is nice it brings rpms down on the highway.

My friend's 97 is pretty nice. $11,500 but more like $15k by the time he cherrys the body out. It has a lot of dents and needs a drivers side mirror. Still $15k ain't bad for a cherry 70k mile S class.

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

You still haven't said anything about the timing chain.

Your friend's car won't look too much like a bargain when you check this out: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/97-S320-ONLY-84K-LOADED-LTHR-SNRF-CHROME-6MO-WARANTY_W0QQitemZ4592836433QQcategoryZ6336QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This one looks quite "cherry" and along with the 3 month warranty provided free of charge, seems like a nice deal. Of course, maybe your friend's has more options but still this one looks great.

My guess is that in the long run, the S350 will cost just less to maintain, but the S320 may be ahead of it by having a purchase price that will be at least $3K less than that of a comparable S350. Also, the S320 will have better performance and for some people that's enough reason to get it over the S350.

__________________
1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

Hi ya boys! Happy Thanksgiving to all. Very interesting debate. Braverichard, the '97 S320, on ebay, makes the point at $11500. buy-it-now price! The new low-sulfer diesel fuels that will be available and mandated? They will be possibly $4. a gallon, whatever happens with unleaded regular gas, I have read. I won't get into the waste vegetable oil debate where one drives for $0. for fuel for the diesels. There are some States where one cannot register and license a recent and NEW Diesel passenger car, California and New York are two states. VW is stopping production of their Pumpe-Deuse Diesel Injection System, for the Common-Rail System, for their future engines. Diesel may become too expensive for the general public in the future.

I am still waiting for the S600 V12s, to drop some more. I saw a good one sell for $10000. last month. I think that the S320, is the best of all worlds in the W140 class, just because of it's simplicity, which is an oxymoron when discussing the W140 and Mercedes-Benz, in general.

Actually I attented a conference on future energy sources and uses and some executives from Big Oil attended it. They assured me that the cost of diesel would rise by at least $0.20-$0.50 over what it should be once ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) arrives sometime next year. ULSD will mean though that all MB diesels can meet emissions requirements in all US states so the current restrictions that exist in states like New York and California will then disappear.

In having this debate with Hatterasguy and spilling out facts upon facts upon facts, it is clear that the S320 does indeed present a relatively troublefree and enjoyable W140 ownership. A 1999 S600 remains one of my dream cars and I will get that someday but not for daily use. This debate has encouraged me to have even more constructive debates in the future. You will surprise yourself by learning stuff from such debates.

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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

Yes, Braverichard, I agree with you on these debates. I have learned much with a comraderie from you and Hatterasguy and the other friends here on this grand site! I absolutely enjoy it!

Great to hear about the price of low-sulfer diesel, stabilizing. I have even been considering a W116 300SD, as I love the presence of those cars. The S600s are my reality, but, a beautiful V12 Ferrari or BMW, are in my plans also!

Goodnight Friends...Paul