new to forum...lots of questions

[DieselMonkey]

Guys,

I'm new to the forum and the world of Mercedes diesels. The past 3 years I have been working on VW's only, i'm almost finished a complete re-build of a mk3 Golf T-IDI which should see more than double its factory output, but I have always wanted a Merc diesel (190E etc...). I just missed buying one a few months back with the factory option of a 190E 'Cossie' kit but you cant win them all.....

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When the Golf is finished, I would very much like to start a Mercedes build, not quite to the standard of the Finn's, but i'd do my best. Problem is, I have so many questions about Merc diesel's and really rather confused by the whole situation. So many different engines etc... compared to VAG. Maybe you guys can help me along the road a bit, get me thinking as I look out for a good car to start with. A few of these questions relate to the very impressive 190E from Finland, which was a 3.0L 6 cyl. 24 valve I think ?

1) Is this engine DI or indirect injection ? (24 valve)
2) When did Merc go from IDI to DI (CDI?)
3) What years of engines are mostly being discussed here ? I presume pre- CDI era ?
4) Are these Mercedes engines a lot like VW / Audi, with many interchangable parts between all models of engine
5) VAG motors mainly use a Bosch VE and VP series of pump (1980's - 2000), what pump is common to Mercedes engines ? I am told it is an inline pump with engine oil pressure fed lubrication, and for this reason, very reliable when being run on different quality fuels, and veggie oil etc...
6) Are the n/a engines basically a TD short motor without the turbo parts, or do they have different pistons, rings, lack of squirter jets, lack of external drillings and tappings in the block, higher compression, differnet alloys for head etc...
7) Are the CDi's the first electronically controlled Merc diesels ?

I'm also totally unfamiliar with much of the information I have come across when reading the forum today for the first time, for example W123 ? Is this the chassis model for a 190E ?

To me here in the UK, there are many many Mercedes on the roads. The only ones to ever really attract my attention where the 190E and both old and new C220 CDi's and E320 CDi's. Maybe these are re-baded in the US, I am not sure, but personally, like my VW's, i would rather side step the ECU's etc.. and work on a mechanical system.

Where the Finnish running there 190E's with 3L 6 cylinders (606 ???). The valve cover / engine looked very modern, almost out of line with that year of car, what Mercedes model would this engine have come from ? 300D ?

Does the 190E use the same chassis and body as a 300D ? Basically if wanting to build a nice 190E, would I need a 190E and simply get the drive train from a 300D with turbo motor ?

Parts for Mercedes here is no problem, biggest Mercedes breaker in Ireland is only 25 miles away.

If there are any parts that you guys have real difficulty obtaining or would require any CNC machining carried out, I would do my best to help out. I make a lot of EGR blanking kits for VW diesels and plates to mount EGT probes also. All CNC milled, heat treated and surface ground before fitting.

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Making parts for diesel enthusiasts is somthing I am only to happy to do.

Hope to get some info soon, sorry for so many questions,

Regards, DM

[dieseldiehard]

Hi, DM
I have little experience with TDI's that is too modern for me (yet)
I believe the Finns are hot rodding the OM603, in the 300D turbo 1987-1990 or thereabouts. That model was only exported to America in 1987, maybe a few 300TD wagons in 1986 then nothing until the revamped in '95 as E300D.
The 190D would be the W202 chassis diesel that we call the Baby Benz, you have a lot of them there I am sure, many gassers (a 190E is a gas EFI engine in several configurations including that Cossor rarity you mentioned )
With the quality of the work you do you are going to have a lot of admirers here.
Brian Carlton made up some EGR blank-offs I believe they were laser cut SS (I should know I've got two of them)
Welcome to the 'Forum, and let us know how that veeDub works out!
Oh yes, I like the yellow paint seals, it says you take professionalism seriously in your work.
Keep an eye out for the variable geometery turbochargers off wrecked late model Benz that is very new and hard to find here. Diesel Performance super Mod
"Mercedes Part Number on the Turbo is 613 096 02 99 (I bought this off of ebay $200 from England)" !!!

My herd:
1971 220 (gas) 4-spd manual 106441
1979 300TD w/ ’85 turbo engine 299960
1983 300D 244626
1985 300TD 226868
1987 300D 262300
1987 300D $400 project car WIP

[dieseldiehard]

your right the Finns put an OM606 engine in a 123 chassis:
W123 with a OM606 in it

To further clarify, the 123 Benzs were produced from 1978 to 1985. They are the older style sedans and wagons.

The aspirated MB diesels were not designed for the turbo and do not include components specific for a turbo configuration, so an aspirated MB diesel would not be one to consider adding a turbo. The OM617 all iron 5 cylinder w/turbo would be a better choice, but an even better choice for performance upgrade would be the OM603 that was available for the 124 and 126 model Benzs offered after 1986 in the US, but these cars were available in Europe a few years earlier.

The 190D, a 201 car, had I think a 4 cylinder diesel in 1984 and 85 I think, but later used a OM602 aluminum head iron block 5 cylinder. Someone else here may know well more than I about the 201 cars.

[DieselMonkey]

Thanks so far guys for the help and the kind comments.

Yes VW coming on well, only need driveshafts and rear calipers and its ready to drive.

Any idea if that 190E with OM606 engine was indirect injection or DI ? I think Mauri mentioned in one post that there was no need to change 22.1 compresion ratio, so i'm leaning to IDI.

Any idea what year / model the 24 valve head would have been fact. fitted to ?

I think i'm hooked already. Younger 190E and 190D's are no problem to find. So the older 190's are called a W123, what about the younger 190's (after 78' - 85) ? Would I be better buying the older W123, or would it matter if I went for a younger 190 ?

Are subframes and engine mounting locations common to all, meaning you can fit a wide variety of motors ?

The Garrett VNT 22 I think is what Mercedes use on the CDi's, very expensive new, but easy to get hold of from any breaking yard. However, the operation of the variable vanes is vacuum, not pressure from compressor housing, it wouldnt be easy to retro fit one to a non - factory car. VW used the VNT 15 and 17, i had a 15 but had to sell it.

For EGR and EGT plates, i use both heat treated mild steel or 316 stainless steel. For inlet side, 2024 Alu or somthing like that, its not important, as long as its flat. To manufacture, I drill the pitched holes in the material, place on a jig (which is in a CNC machine vice), clock a known position, set datums and machine round the outer profile, grind flat and its complete. On a VW diesel, thats the EGR deleted and a probe mounted for EGT readings in one operation ; just need to use a new gasket. The EGT probes can be obtained from 42draftdesigns.com. They are a 1/4" - 18 NPT.

Thanks for the help,

Regards, DM

[t walgamuth]

my observation the most popular years on this site are from 1968 thru the mid ninties. the engines are mostly all mechanical and are pretty straightforward to work on, cheap to buy and run.

the pumps are all bosch inline as you mentioned...very rugged and dependable almost never fail.

the interchangability between the four five and six versions of particular engines is very high with the parts not interchangalbe being blocks, rods, heads and injection pumps pretty much... oh yeah, cams and headers too.

welcome to benz world. we are all diesel geeks and proud of it.

tom w