How much for an IP? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

brokentroy · #1 10-17-2005, 09:02 PM

Hi all,

Any idea how much I can expect to pay for an injection pump (installed)?

I have a feeling mine is DOA.

My car won't start. My friend and I tried to drag start according the instructions in the manual and it still would not turn over. It's been at the garage since Thursday. No, two different garages, and neither can figure out what's wrong. The first guy did not know much about diesels, but the second guy is exclusively MB and works with diesels all the time. He, of course, charges $70 and hour and has looked at it for 5 or 6 hours already.

My friend, who converted it to run on SVO, stopped by to offer some help, since he also knows a bit about diesel engines and can tell them what is going on with the SVO side of things. The mechanic allowed us to do some after hours testing. My friend hooked a fuel pump directly to the IP and could not get it to start. Then we did the tow start thing and that still didn't work. That's when he concluded it might be the IP.

So, I guess I just want to know I'm not getting raped (more than I already am) when this guy hands me the bill.

Thanks all.

#2 10-17-2005, 09:25 PM

If your looking used, look here... http://car-part.com/

brokentroy · #3 10-17-2005, 10:17 PM

thanks.

If he tries to charge too much, I'll order one from here.

Jmana · #4 10-17-2005, 10:42 PM

Did you check the injectors? You might want to pull one and see if it's clogged.

brokentroy · #5 10-17-2005, 10:54 PM

they did find one clogged. they chaged it. I think the rest were ok. they also changed the lift pump. they purged any air from the system too. everyone is really scratching their heads over this one (at $70 and hour)

whunter · #6 10-17-2005, 11:12 PM

What have you done?
Do you mean it will not crank?
What fuel are you feeding it?
Did they try feeding the injection pump pure diesel purge?
Is there fuel pressure to the injectors?
Did you change the secondary fuel filter?

brokentroy · #7 10-18-2005, 09:02 AM

* bought the car Aug 20ish.

* converted it to run SVO using a greasecar.com kit on Sept 24/25. The conversion went smoothly, except I did break and replace a vacuum hose. It went from a box on the fender to the manifold. No problems driving. Ran like a charm.

* I needed an engine oil change and, as I am capable, I did it myself on 10/1

* On 10/4 or 5, can't remember, I had driven the car to work with no problems. In the afternoon I went to one of our satellite locations and on the way back to the office I was attempting to pass a car on the highway. I pushed in the accelerator but the car would not accelerate. I continued to have experiences like that.

* On 10/6 I was traveling on the highway, it took me a while to get up to speed, and when I came to a rather steep incline the car was barley able to make it up the hill. I continued to have problems. In the meantime I was searching this forum and asking for advice.

On 10/7 I discovered that some of my svo fittings were loose and that the fuel line from the secondary filter to the injectors was leaking and bubbling. I tightened the fittings and ordered fuel line.

* On 10/8 I changed out the diesel primary and secondary filter and changed my veggie filter. I broke another fragile vacuum line and repaired that as well.

* On 10/10 as I was replacing the fuel lines I noticed that the vacuum line I had repaired when I did my conversion was no longer attached to the manifold.

* On 10/11 I repaired the vacuum line and noticed some performance improvement. I was reading more on the forums and came across one that mentioned that the vacuum fitting on the ALDA (sorry if I spelled that wrong) can get gummed up.

* On 10/12 I removed what I thought was the vacuum fitting mentioned above and it was in fact completely blocked. I noticed a marked power increase until I drove for long distances on the highway. Then back to the same old.

* On 10/13 I discovered that I had been wrong about where the ALDA is and had actually cleaned the fitting on the manifold. I figured out where the ALDA is and removed that fitting, but it was not blocked. I also attempted to perform a vacuum test using a recently purchased Mightyvac. I learned that I am completely clueless and gave up. I called the place I bought the car from to see if they had time to figure out my problem. They were booked. I called another local mechanic and he told me to drop it off. i went to take it to the garage and that's when the car failed to start. (I'll mention here that I had started it earlier in the day.) It just blew a bunch of white smoke and acted like it wanted to start, but it would not turn over. I had it towed to the garage and later discovered that they had no clue as to what they were doing. They did not normally work on diesels. Yea!

* On 10/14 I had the car towed to the place I bought it. They specialize in MB and have worked on a lot of diesels. They couldn’t get to it until Monday.

* On 10/17 the dealer spent 3 hours on it and could not figure out why it won’t start. He blamed it on the svo system, as they all have. I called my friend who helped me install my kit, installs professionally, and knows about diesels, and asked him to stop by the garage and see if he can help them out. The mechanic had no problem with this. My friend suggested that the lift pump might be bad since there was fuel surrounding its perimeter. The mechanic replaced the fuel pump. Still no go. They found a bad injector and replaced that as well. Still no go. 6 hours have passed. $70 an hour. My friend and I stopped by the shop. We asked if we could work on it a bit after hours. No problem. They rolled it outside the gate. My friend put a fuel pump he had directly onto the IP, eliminating the svo system. No go. He sprayed ether into the engine. No go. He called a friend who has the same kind of car and he suggested tow starting it. My friend didn’t think this could be done since it is an automatic so he looked in the owner’s manual and low and behold found instructions for tow starting the car. We tried for about 2 hours to get it going. A few times the engine would make noise, but then it died and would not start.

* Today, 10/18. Just spoke to the mechanic. Told him what my buddy and I did. He said they have an IP on the lot and they are going to see if it will work with my car. He said to call back at 2:00. That’s another 6 hours. So far, without parts, I’m looking at $700 or more.

TimFreeh · #8 10-18-2005, 09:26 AM

Sounds like a classic case of fuel starvation - has anybody done a pressure test on the fuel supply lines? As I recall the pressure should be 4 PSI at idle. The fuel system on the OM603 is self priming and self bleeding but if the system loses prime it requires an absurd amount of cranking before it self bleeds. In my experience it takes 3-4 minutes of cranking time - and this is with a perfectly clear fuel system. If your system is not flowing freely I don't think it would ever bleed.

Procedure 07.1-5701 in the shop manual tests for delivery rates and procedure 07.1-5702 tests fuel delivery pressure - I'd start here before I began changing injection pumps.

Fisherman · #9 10-18-2005, 10:05 AM

A coupewl of things to note.
1. Crack the injector lines as you crank and make sure they are getting fuel.
2. If they are, rig to run on diesel purge bypassing the filters. Then try to start it.

If the lines are passing fuel and the purge doesn't start it then there is something else wrong like maybe the vacuum shutoff valve is stuck? Have you checked the line from the shutoff valve to the key switch to make sure that it allows air to pass through when the key is in the off postion?
Easy check of this is to just bleed the vacuum off the line feeding the vacuum shutoff valve (disconnect it for a second) and then try to start it. I think I heard of one person here that the key switch got gummed up due to a leaking shutoff valve that allowed oil to get pulled back up the line. The issue then became that once they shut the car off the valve in the key switch would not release the vacuum so the shutoff valve would not release the rack to allow it to supply fuel. I guess in retrospect this would be evidenced if you do not have fuel to the injectors... duh...

These are only suggestions and I strongly recommend not paying 70.00 pr hour to have them play around but these are also very simple tasks that should not take much time to test.

Caution on the shutoff valve. I'm sure you have read the stories about the runaway diesel. Under no circumstances run the car with the vacuum shutoff valve removed. Death via runaway will ensue.

brokentroy · #10 10-18-2005, 10:52 AM

I'm pretty sure they cracked the injectors already. I hope they did. I would think that should be one of the first things to try. I know I did on Thursday and I was getting fuel to them.

My friend rigged up a vacuum pump he had in his truck and bypassed all the filters. It went directly into the IP and he still could not start it.

I'll ask them to check the vacuum system and also the pressure on the supply lines.

Thanks guys.

signalredcoupe · #11 10-18-2005, 11:02 AM

I must agree that this sounds like a classic example of fuel starvation, but when my 240D went, the symtoms were quite similar with a loss of compression which I would check anyway in your case. Paul, central FL.

1984 300CD

deanot442 · #12 10-18-2005, 11:12 AM

1) Does the car sound like it wants to fire?
2) Did the car sit for a while at any time before you bought it and modified it?

If yes to the above, check the exhaust output (hand over pipe). There should be much pressure, if not you may have an exhaust blockage and need to clear it out. There is a mention of this condition in the archives, and I just diagnosed this problem in an associates 87 300TDT.

The best way to eliminate this as the culpret is to unbolt the exhaust manifold or at least the down pipe after the turbo, and attempt to start car.

brokentroy · #13 10-18-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deanot442

1) Does the car sound like it wants to fire?
2) Did the car sit for a while at any time before you bought it and modified it?

If yes to the above, check the exhaust output (hand over pipe). There should be much pressure, if not you may have an exhaust blockage and need to clear it out. There is a mention of this condition in the archives, and I just diagnosed this problem in an associates 87 300TDT.

The best way to eliminate this as the culpret is to unbolt the exhaust manifold or at least the down pipe after the turbo, and attempt to start car.

It does sound like it wants to fire. the mechanics mentioned removing the exhaust yesterday, but I'm not sure if they've done it yet.

I'm not sure how long it sat before I bought it.

brokentroy · #14 10-18-2005, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Col.Klink

He sprayed ether into the engine. No go.

This is never a good idea on Mercedes but whats done is done . If it failed to start with ether then you have some Major issues . It should have at least fired a few rounds with it. I strongly advise a Compression check as the Valve timing may have gotten off and bent the valves and short of there being huge holes in each piston the engine should have Started if only for a moment on the either .If it locked up or acted like it was when trying to crank with the ether then it is a possibility the Cylinders are flooded which I may get some argumment on this but I know it can happen so any contradiction on it is Moot. In this case you can squirt ( W-D 40) in the intake while cranking for a few 20 second intervals then wait ten or fifteen minutes and try to start it normally.... Good luck to you and 70 bucks an hour is Cheap for a competant MB Mechanic.

I will ask them about a compression check. I know my friend put about 35psi through the fuel lines yesterday and it still wouldn't start. That's more of a pressure thing though, isn't it.

I think they were going to do some sort of test on the IP. is that the compression test?

signalredcoupe · #15 10-18-2005, 11:58 AM

Checking the output pressure of the IP is good. The actual engine compression check is what was just previously mentioned here. Worn rings or damaged valves(from wear or -ulp! ether)will seriously affect compression & after all, that's what it's all about in these engines. Your car may run fine in warmer weather, but as soon as it gets colder, the glow plug system & compression will tell you how healthy your engine really is. Also, when your car was running, was it using/burning a lot of oil? Paul
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'84 signal red coupe