Vote your opinion on the high fuel prices - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

andmoon · #61 10-29-2005, 11:18 AM

I don't like it but our fuel prices are just going to keep going up whether it is due to supply/demand and/or gauging.
I don't have the strength/energy/desire/money to fight it but I also don't want to pay. ...Veggie has been a good answer so far but the days of driving big solid cars on the cheap are numbered.

I want big heavy and solid for safety. (Get as many airbags as you want, unless you are crashing into a barrier, the bigger heavier vehicle always wins)

My only 'newer' option is the passat wagon but it doesn't meet my safety standard.

Oh yeah fuel prices suck!

TimFreeh · #62 10-29-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wols0003

No, it is not a truly competitive industry. Back to my macro-economics from ten years ago; perfectly competitive industries are those such as T-shirt printing shops, where there are very low bariers to entry and no special product that can not be replicated or readily had by other competitors. The oil idustry is an extremely limited industry bordering on monopolistic, because there are incredible barriers to entry and an extremely limited number of competiters. There will not be new sprout up competitors offering more gasoline supply even though the price levels are extremely profitable, simply because the cost of starting a oil company and regulative barriers make it impossible for any competiters to enter the industry. Short answer; it is not a competitive marketplace.

Exactly correct - now for the next question.......Why is it so hard to get into the oil business?

Who is primarily responsible for creating market conditions that make it damn near impossible to bring new sources of oil into production and totally impossible to build new refining capacity to meet rising demand for product?????

TimFreeh · #63 10-29-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

WHAAaaat??????

The REASON Studebaker ended up in a low profit position was because they were so stupid that any time the unions asked for a raise, management just gave it to them, no question. The labor rates became so high that they were no longer competitive.

The same kind of thing is now happening to GM. When you pay someone $25 an hour or whatever it is, to put nuts on shock absorbers and take coffee breaks all day, that's where you end up.

I toured a GM plant in 1967 or so and people in that place were, for the most part, working at a break neck pace. I was in the same plant about 10 years ago looking at a control system and the pace of the workers in there made it look like a Church Social. If it weren't for the automation in the place, they wouldn't have been able to turn ANY finished product out the door.

I couldn't agree more with your compassion for the employees that spend their lifetime there and walk away with nothing, but their union behavior is as responsible for the mess as is management, or mismanagement might be more correct. The management have made plenty of bad decisions for their part of the problem and the unions have priced themselves out of a job.

The $10B that Exxon made was on $100B gross revenue. If that profit were to fall much lower, the Exxon investors would take their marbles and go elsewhere leaving the company in the same situation as Studabaker.

Yes INDEED, if an investor can move their money elsewhere and get more return, you can bet your bippy that they will do it. That's what this country was founded on, free enterprise. The guys that do this are just good businessmen. The management of companies that allow this to happen are either; poor managers, victims of a failing industry or victims of other practices such as out of control, overpriced union workers.

Okay, now that all that is said as response, I am putting on my Kevlar and hunkering down in my foxhole.

Have a great day,

It is indeed a sad day when somebody that is speaking the truth has to put on a kevlar helmet and hunker down in a foxhole.

Hatterasguy · #64 10-29-2005, 07:44 PM

Larry I agree 100%.

t walgamuth · #65 10-29-2005, 08:42 PM

that i talk of are those in which the top execs lie to everybody about profitability to drive the "paper" profits up so everyone will buy their stock. lying about these things is fraud. you are supposed to go to jail for it but it is, i suppose, hard to prove how someone (like martha stewart) got the idea right before the stock prices fall in a pit, to sell.

and i am all for free enterprise. i am a competetor in the market place with the services i offer and the real estate that i develop for rent or sale.

the problem is when folks focus on making money as the ONLY worthy goal. bribes, lies and price fixing are the result. these folks make political contributions to pols who will do things that help them to secure unfair advantages.

greed is the same as it has always been...since biblical days. for power, money or in king davids case another man's wife. people are much the same as they have always been.

most try to live and play by the rules. some don't and get rich by bending and breaking the rules.

larry, i fail to see how you feel it is ok for exxon mobil to make a record 10b in one quarter in a time when the country is reeling from the war and two major hurricanes.

but hey that is just me. i always root for the underdog.

tom w

#66 10-29-2005, 09:35 PM

t.,

I agreed with your last post all the way until you say that $10B profit on $100B in sales is a bad thing. We are talking a TEN PERCENT PROFIT!!!!! How would you in your competitive business like to be limited to a profit less than 10%.

You are absolutely right about lieing, cheating or any other illegal or unethical business practice. If we catch the guys at Exxon or ANY OTHER company engaging in such practices, let them go to jail and do the shower dance with Bubba. Put me on the jury and I'll do my part to get them put away as long as possible. With the emotion inolved over increasing fuel prices, you can bet that there are plenty of people keeping an eye on them. The person that can get the evidence and find that they are doing something illegal would be a national hero.

Where I am having trouble, is seeing what is wrong with a 10% profit. Why does anyone who believes in free enterprise object to a 10% profit?

Have a great day,

#67 10-29-2005, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

Exactly correct - now for the next question.......Why is it so hard to get into the oil business?

Who is primarily responsible for creating market conditions that make it damn near impossible to bring new sources of oil into production and totally impossible to build new refining capacity to meet rising demand for product?????

Tim,

I'll take a wild stab at answering your quizz. Could it be the environmental extremists that put so many restrictions on refinery processes? Could it be the people who won't give up 2,000 acres in Alaska out of millions and millions of acres for fear that it might limit the grazing for some moose by .00000001%?

Have a great day,

rurik · #68 10-30-2005, 02:17 PM

Complaining about someone's greed is all fun and good, but it's complaining about symptoms, not the cause. The reason Exxon made so much money last quarter is because they can. Even though fuel price goes went up, consumption remains robust, because the US economy is so badly dependent on oil. If Exxon CEO tried to forego making extra profit out of altruistic considerations, the board would fire him for not doing due diligence. If if the board itself went altruistic, stockholders (i.e. mutual funds where y'all's retirement money is) would revolt. As far as performance this quarter goes, Exxon management does what business management is supposed to do -- make most money without breaking the law, at least technically. Sure, if someone prove prove that there's been collusion between major refiners to fix prices, it's be something else, but I personally don't think they needed to, not in the US market.

BTW, of you read the actual Exxon earnings report, you'll see that most of the extra revenue comes from upstream operations, i.e. is attributable to the higher crude price. To be sure, they did make extra money off refining: "Downstream earnings were $2,128 million, up $727 million from the third quarter 2004, reflecting higher refining margins partly offset by weaker marketing margins." The only reason Exxon net profit margin was lower, Larry, is because they made more money and had to pay more tax, not because they lowered their gross margins. Net profit margin is not a metric of anything though, nor is the absolute profit amount. Earnings per share number is pretty much all that matters in the end.

If someone's got you by the balls, complaining about the grip being too tight won't help a whole lot. You'd better start working on getting your balls free.

#69 10-30-2005, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rurik

Complaining about someone's greed is all fun and good, but it's complaining about symptoms, not the cause. The reason Exxon made so much money last quarter is because they can. Even though fuel price goes went up, consumption remains robust, because the US economy is so badly dependent on oil. If Exxon CEO tried to forego making extra profit out of altruistic considerations, the board would fire him for not doing due diligence. If if the board itself went altruistic, stockholders (i.e. mutual funds where y'all's retirement money is) would revolt. As far as performance this quarter goes, Exxon management does what business management is supposed to do -- make most money without breaking the law, at least technically. Sure, if someone prove prove that there's been collusion between major refiners to fix prices, it's be something else, but I personally don't think they needed to, not in the US market.

BTW, of you read the actual Exxon earnings report, you'll see that most of the extra revenue comes from upstream operations, i.e. is attributable to the higher crude price. To be sure, they did make extra money off refining: "Downstream earnings were $2,128 million, up $727 million from the third quarter 2004, reflecting higher refining margins partly offset by weaker marketing margins." The only reason Exxon net profit margin was lower, Larry, is because they made more money and had to pay more tax, not because they lowered their gross margins. Net profit margin is not a metric of anything though, nor is the absolute profit amount. Earnings per share number is pretty much all that matters in the end.

If someone's got you by the balls, complaining about the grip being too tight won't help a whole lot. You'd better start working on getting your balls free.

Very good information and comment.

Something that has not been realized by the socialists among us here, and that should make them happy or maybe less mad, is that Exxon paid MORE taxes because they made more money.

If there is something in all this to get mad about, think about the taxes you pay at the pump PLUS the taxes that the oil companies pay on their earnings which are passed along to you in the form of increased fuel cost.

There are many who love to see corporations pay big taxes without ever stopping to realize that the cost of those taxes are passed along to their customers. That is the only source of revenue to pay that tax.

It would be an interesting study to determine how much of Exxons overhead is tax and then divide that number by the number of gallons they sell, to determine how much extra tax per gallon, in addition to that added at the pump, that we pay on each gallon.

Have a great day,

#70 10-30-2005, 03:41 PM

Call me lazy, or misinformed, and I have not read one post response here, but to address the original thread starter, a vote? ....why a vote?

We are all subject to the world economy, fuel usually setting the pace, and do you or I really have anything more than a gripe!

Change is not within a vote here, but rather your own agenda!

If you sit in la la land, as 98% of the world does, times will never change because we don't want change, but change must be, just as it always has been!

lorenztl · #71 10-30-2005, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Very good information and comment.
If there is something in all this to get mad about, think about the taxes you pay at the pump PLUS the taxes that the oil companies pay on their earnings which are passed along to you in the form of increased fuel cost.

There are many who love to see corporations pay big taxes without ever stopping to realize that the cost of those taxes are passed along to their customers. That is the only source of revenue to pay that tax.

It would be an interesting study to determine how much of Exxons overhead is tax and then divide that number by the number of gallons they sell, to determine how much extra tax per gallon, in addition to that added at the pump, that we pay on each gallon.

Have a great day,

Larry,

Thank you for your great economics lesson 101. I appreciate your simple and eloquent presentation of facts educating our forum on supply and demand of oil and its effects on price at the pump.

My wife and I are teaching economics to our Metro Home Educators once a week and the recent rise in fuel prices is a bonanza to explaining local and world-wide effects on gas and diesel prices. In past years the slump in oil prices have had a negative effect on investment in additonal refining capacity. The current high prices may enable oil companies to overcome the high cost of environmental rules and government regulation.

Anyone who has watched environmentalism and government regulation in the 70's bring us to where we are today. I saw these high energy costs coming our way back when I was a teenager. Most of our energy is locked up on goverment land. Were industry allowed to get to this energy resource the price at the pump would plummet and we would not be empowering Middle-Eastern governments or be at war in Iraq.

It would have been interesting to have price controls instituted as Nixon did in the 70's and watch the pumps go dry as they did then. Have so many forgotten what price controls did to gas lines in the 70's.

The high prices however will drop as damaged refineries come on line, but with increased world demand may sustain higher levels than we;ve seen in the past. Industry predictions are that China in 10 years will consume what the world consumes today!!

High prices have helped consumers to change their driving and consumption habits, alleviating a gas shortage and that's good for all of us. The liberals have wanted high priced gas for years to force conservation and all the baaad effects of global warming or cooling whatever and I've not read in our local paper one liberal-environmentalist quoted cheering this turn of events publicly...hmmm?

No surprise when I read our newspaper seeing day after day of articles regarding oil company profits however when is the last time we've seen profit figures on the front page of the paper itself. Our gullible public most of whom are educated in a government school are not taught critical thinking outside these socialist environment. Most readers accept this newspaper glop as if a reporter actually understands what 10 Billion means to an industry. As you've exposed Larry when profits are in the Billions there must be something sinister making all that money. A company that does not make a profit is no good to any individual.

Why is it anyone has more confidence in inefficient non-productive government bureaucrats controling supply than millions of consumers who vote with their feet and dollar every day and an industry built to meet our every demand.

Ask yourselves what the Department of Energy was created for in the 1970's How much energy do they produce with the billions of tax dollars it spends of yours?????????????????? Who from this forum have ever seen the news media or public school teacher ask this question????????????????

Thank you Larry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -Tom

compress ignite · #72 10-31-2005, 12:20 AM

The oil companies have purchased our government by proxy (Lobbiest bribes and
political contributions) [not to mention all the bushwa @ 1600 Pennsylvania]

I cry to suggest this ,but Nationalize the producers foriegn and domestic!

#73 10-31-2005, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by compress ignite

The oil companies have purchased our government by proxy (Lobbiest bribes and
political contributions) [not to mention all the bushwa @ 1600 Pennsylvania]

I cry to suggest this ,but Nationalize the producers foriegn and domestic!

How about some evidence to back up your allegations?

Also, I would suggest that you read lorenztl's post just above yours. He does an excellent job of explaining why such "nationalization" would not work. In fact, it has already been tried and failed miserably. It was called Communism.

Have a great day,

#74 10-31-2005, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenztl

Larry,

Thank you for your great economics lesson 101. I appreciate your simple and eloquent presentation of facts educating our forum on supply and demand of oil and its effects on price at the pump.

My wife and I are teaching economics to our Metro Home Educators once a week and the recent rise in fuel prices is a bonanza to explaining local and world-wide effects on gas and diesel prices. In past years the slump in oil prices have had a negative effect on investment in additonal refining capacity. The current high prices may enable oil companies to overcome the high cost of environmental rules and government regulation.

Anyone who has watched environmentalism and government regulation in the 70's bring us to where we are today. I saw these high energy costs coming our way back when I was a teenager. Most of our energy is locked up on goverment land. Were industry allowed to get to this energy resource the price at the pump would plummet and we would not be empowering Middle-Eastern governments or be at war in Iraq.

It would have been interesting to have price controls instituted as Nixon did in the 70's and watch the pumps go dry as they did then. Have so many forgotten what price controls did to gas lines in the 70's.

The high prices however will drop as damaged refineries come on line, but with increased world demand may sustain higher levels than we;ve seen in the past. Industry predictions are that China in 10 years will consume what the world consumes today!!

High prices have helped consumers to change their driving and consumption habits, alleviating a gas shortage and that's good for all of us. The liberals have wanted high priced gas for years to force conservation and all the baaad effects of global warming or cooling whatever and I've not read in our local paper one liberal-environmentalist quoted cheering this turn of events publicly...hmmm?

No surprise when I read our newspaper seeing day after day of articles regarding oil company profits however when is the last time we've seen profit figures on the front page of the paper itself. Our gullible public most of whom are educated in a government school are not taught critical thinking outside these socialist environment. Most readers accept this newspaper glop as if a reporter actually understands what 10 Billion means to an industry. As you've exposed Larry when profits are in the Billions there must be something sinister making all that money. A company that does not make a profit is no good to any individual.

Why is it anyone has more confidence in inefficient non-productive government bureaucrats controling supply than millions of consumers who vote with their feet and dollar every day and an industry built to meet our every demand.

Ask yourselves what the Department of Energy was created for in the 1970's How much energy do they produce with the billions of tax dollars it spends of yours?????????????????? Who from this forum have ever seen the news media or public school teacher ask this question????????????????

Thank you Larry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -Tom

Tom,

No, thank YOU. Your explanations are much more articulate than my own.

Have a great day,

Hatterasguy · #75 10-31-2005, 10:18 AM

How much profit did Microsoft make so far this year? I bet it is more then $10bill...

What about GE?

View Poll Results: What do you think the cause of the high fuel price is?
Supply and Demand	23	23.47%
Lack of refineries	18	18.37%
Corporate greed	50	51.02%
Lack of government regulation	4	4.08%
Who cares?	3	3.06%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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