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  #31  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:25 AM
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Help me to understand

Hello everyone, I am new to the MB world, however I'm not new to the diesel world. I am currently living in Stuttgart Germany, and will be picking up my new W211 CDI at the end of Feb or early March.

I have a question about oil changes. How many other diesel owners change their oil before the recommended 13,000 mile mark? Why dont you trust the R&D that MB has done on the I-6 on the distance that the engine can go before the scheduled oil change?

What are some of the reason's you do/dont go the 13,000 miles?

Personally, I will be adhearing to the 13,000 mile oil change, I figure that MB knows what is best for this engine, however, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Derek
'06 E320 CDI (soon)
'00 BMW 530d (5speed manual)
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  #32  
Old 01-02-2006, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek_CDI
What are some of the reason's you do/dont go the 13,000 miles?
I can't comment on the CDI's, however, the reason that the diesels listed below cannot go much more than 5-7K is soot. The 617 builds up unacceptable levels of soot when it runs 8K. Personally, I don't want the soot to be above 1%, even if the manufacturers will tolerate considerably more than this. Soot is abrasive. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the more you have, the more wear you suffer.

When you go 13K on oil, the engine would have to be exceptionally clean for the oil to remain below 1% soot. I'd be real curious to see the soot loading in a CDI engine at 13K on oil.

Additionally, don't have too much confidence in the M/B "engineers"? If the engine lasts 100K, they'll be satisfied. The warranty goes out well before that.
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  #33  
Old 01-02-2006, 10:51 AM
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Personel choice, I figure for a $50 investment it is pretty cheap insurance policy and no harm is done changing every 6500 miles works out to 1.5 times a year for me. I am sure after 13000 it will be fine if you do not do the the in between change. Has anyone tested the oil yet would be curious to see the results.
m
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  #34  
Old 01-02-2006, 11:10 AM
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I was going to work yesterday morning around 11:55am.....and right by my work I went past an intersection where a new MB was sitting waiting to turn.....then I went into a turn around to get into my work's driveway, and was waiting to cross there, and the guy went around the turn in the other lane, and it was a 320cdi from Indiana! I was like: " " The first one I'd ever seen in person!!! It was 23 years of MB diesel generation gap at a single traffic light. Pretty awesome.
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  #35  
Old 01-02-2006, 07:54 PM
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Derek_CDI do a search over at MB world, lots of members their have sent their oil to the lab. It seems that a lot of crap gets into the oil as the new engines clean themselves out in the first few changes. I think one member had his oil tested at like 7k and it came back over the limits in a few areas. The lab said do a few short changes then you can push them to 13k miles or more.


Basicaly if you plan on keeping the car for 5 years or 100k miles do 13k mile changes from day 1. If you plan on long term ownership do the first few sooner and work your way to the 13k miles.
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  #36  
Old 01-03-2006, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton
I can't comment on the CDI's, however, the reason that the diesels listed below cannot go much more than 5-7K is soot. The 617 builds up unacceptable levels of soot when it runs 8K. Personally, I don't want the soot to be above 1%, even if the manufacturers will tolerate considerably more than this. Soot is abrasive. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the more you have, the more wear you suffer.

When you go 13K on oil, the engine would have to be exceptionally clean for the oil to remain below 1% soot. I'd be real curious to see the soot loading in a CDI engine at 13K on oil.

Additionally, don't have too much confidence in the M/B "engineers"? If the engine lasts 100K, they'll be satisfied. The warranty goes out well before that.
I know we've discussed this before but I think you're being unreasonable about the soot levels. Soot, in any quantity, will be abrasive and cause some damage to the engine. However, I doubt that the difference between the level of damage caused by soot is that significant between 1% and 2% concentrations. I've sent off some samples of my oil after 3,000 miles and seen the soot level as high as 1.5%. So in your case, does that mean you won't even use the oil for 3,000 miles because of that, even though all the other properties of the oil are actually in almost new shape? Unless you have some evidence of serious damage caused by the additional 1% of soot in oil, I don't think there's anything to fear from going up to 2%.

I've seen the results of spectrochemical analysis on oil used for as long as 9,000 miles on some OM606 engines and the soot levels were actually at about 1% after such long use. Given that the CDI engines are even much cleaner, I'd say that going 13,000 miles on a CDI engine would be very possible because the soot level would probably still be below 2%. Also, regarding that 2% level, M-B engineers aren't the only ones that use that as the maximum soot level that should be allowed in engine oil. I've read that figure from all sorts of diesel engine manufacturers, so it seems to be a universally accepted figure.
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  #37  
Old 01-03-2006, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braverichard
I know we've discussed this before but I think you're being unreasonable about the soot levels. Soot, in any quantity, will be abrasive and cause some damage to the engine. However, I doubt that the difference between the level of damage caused by soot is that significant between 1% and 2% concentrations.
We've been around the block with it many times. You are making the case that there is no difference between the wear level incurred by the engine at a 1% concentration versus a 2% concentration. I beg to differ. I suggest to you, without any data, that the wear caused by the soot will be twice the level at 2% as compared to 1%.

Now, whether the generally accepted level of 2% is universally acceptable is a completely different discussion. We have no information as to how durable an engine will be at this level. It may last 400K miles and this longevity may be considered more than acceptable. However, the last 100K may be operated with marginal compression due to liner wear.

Personally, if I can limit the wear on the engine by changing the oil when the soot reaches 1%, I will do it, provided the cost of the change is not excessive. Look at it this way: You have a $6K engine and are attempting to delay a $30. oil change.............doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In the case cited, whereby the soot levels climb above 1% within 3K miles, I would make the switch to dino oil and change the oil every 3K.
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  #38  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:38 PM
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I can see your point of view more clearly now. It seems like this is really a struggle of whether one intends to keep their car forever or not. 400K miles is quite a lot of miles to rack up on ANY car. Indeed, I can't see any manufacturer purposefully engineering a car to last that long, especially not in today's cost conscious and extremely competitive industries. So the 2% soot level that is universally accepted may be good for lesser miles that that. And after reading that M-B engineers make those newer transmission that are sealed for life with "life" being 150K miles, I can truly see how the 2% soot level may not be fit for much higher miles.

Bottom line: this is all about how long one intends to keep the car in question.
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  #39  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braverichard
Bottom line: this is all about how long one intends to keep the car in question.
This would be true if you had no regard for the machinery and simply are looking to maximize your own pocketbook.

If you have interest in keeping the machinery operating for the longest possible term, within reason, whether owned by you or another individual after you, then you will make the expenditure of the few cents required in the short term, within reason.

If you intend to get another 100K from the engine and then sell/dispose of the vehicle, why bother to change the oil at all? I'm sure that synthetic oil will go 100K in a 617 if wear is not a consideration.
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  #40  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:59 PM
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That's true. Many of us won't own the cars for even 100,000 miles. Anything can happen and end the ownership. Mine just about came to an end a few months ago but I decided against it with my wallet. I'm not in a dire financial situation, but if I were in one, I'd only worry about the state of the car during MY ownership and not for future owners. Whether most people admit it or not, once the $$$ supply runs short, that's all people will think of. Ultimately these are machines meant to serve their owners. I would like to make my car last long because I don't exactly know when I'll give it up. But many people don't do that. They just make sure it works while they have it and hopefully works the day they sell it. When you purchase a used car, you basically agree to take on all liabilities attached to it. Otherwise, just go and buy a new one. We all know that.
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  #41  
Old 01-03-2006, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braverichard
But many people don't do that. They just make sure it works while they have it and hopefully works the day they sell it. When you purchase a used car, you basically agree to take on all liabilities attached to it. Otherwise, just go and buy a new one.
How many people purchase a new vehicle and drive it for 39 months and never check or change the oil, even once?? Just turn it back into the dealer and lease another one.

I'll bet that this is more common than most realize.
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  #42  
Old 01-03-2006, 01:17 PM
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My uncle has never poped the hood once on his 325I. Why should he waste his time? BMW covers all the maintaince all he does is drop it at the dealer every 10k miles and they do their thing. In 1-2 years it will be traded in on a newer one.

It depends on how much you care about a car, I just changed the oil in my SD for the first time since June. Now granted it sat a lot but still. Maybe I'll change it next year but if I am going to sell it I'd rather keep the $20 in my pocket.
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  #43  
Old 01-03-2006, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Hatterasguy
Maybe I'll change it next year but if I am going to sell it I'd rather keep the $20 in my pocket.
.........there you go..........and this is from a man who does a fair amount of wrenching and spends tons of money on his vehicle.
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  #44  
Old 01-03-2006, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton
How many people purchase a new vehicle and drive it for 39 months and never check or change the oil, even once?? Just turn it back into the dealer and lease another one.

I'll bet that this is more common than most realize.
Never even thought of that! Must be happening left and right!
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  #45  
Old 05-05-2007, 04:19 PM
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All just a quick update. the E320cdi has 45000 on it now and running well. I have gone to the 13000 mile oil changes since 26000 and seen no problems. No warranty work since my last update so am very happy. Still averaging about 35 mpg on the highway and 25 in the city. I have a heavy foot and live at 6000 feet. I have been running B20 for the last 20000 miles with no problems. I get the Bio from Bluesun (http://www.gobluesun.com/). I run it in the Jetta TDI as well. By the way I did get the ipod kit and installed it myself takes about 4 hours the first time, could do it in 2 now. It really is worth it. Also had the front seat adjusted so the seat belt sensor is nt so sensitive and all is well.


m
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Last edited by mhingram; 05-05-2007 at 04:28 PM.
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