stuck on the off ramp - fun times Manual 240D - HELP!

[chetwesley]

Hey guys, fun times.

I was getting off the freeway, pushed in the clutch because traffic was coming to a stop, putting into second, but then realizing I was going to have to go down to first, but all with the pedal in. All of a sudden the engine conks out.

Ok, so take it out of gear and I start it - it starts fine, but won't go into gear. It is acting as though the clutch pedal is not pushed in (though it is). Also, I might be imagining this, but it seems like the clutch pedal isn't giving much resistance - it springs back as usual, but something seems to be missing. I looked under the car, didn't see any leaking fluid.

The clutch and the brakes use the same fluid, right? The fluid level looked fine I think - definitely not extremely low.

So what is it? Master or slave cylinder? If I get get someone to push it into the big empty parking lot here, it that a parking lot job?

Thanks for the help. Help me out guys, I am stuck at work, don't want to spend the weekend here!!!

[lutzTD]

when my master cylinder went out it was similar. is there fluid on your carpet? neither the master or slave will be a ten minute job. the fluid for the clutch comes from the rear brake reservior, when you look it is difficult to see the level on the back one, but you should have gotten a light. the clutch drains from the lowest spot so if you were that low you would notice brake issues too

[jt20]

Can only speak from experience with a much different car. Same issues, more progressive not sudden, ended up being the clutch master.

[Stevo]

You know there are two chambers in the reservoir, right ? That back half is hard to see, shake the reservoir and make sure you can see brake fluid in there, report back

[pelon]

i don't know how far you commute (or where you are) but you can warm the engine up, shut it off, put it in second, then start it and drive home in second. or, if you have truck driving experience, shift without the clutch.
at least then you have it home to work on.

[JimSmith]

I have had two such failures. The first was on my 1975 240D. I was in Alaska in 1976-1978, and while there I found Mobil 1 synthetic oil. It was like water pouring out of the can, but that stuff made cold starts no problem. But it would leak a little past the rear crank seal and get on the clutch, and when that happened the clutch would chatter in a standing start horrendously. Well, seems I damaged on of the little coil springs that are arranged circumferentially in the clutch disc, making it bulge out on one side. After about 130,000 more miles, I stepped on the clutch one day and it popped, and the pedal went to the floor and kind of stayed there, limp. That turned out to cost me a clutch job. The little spring was machined into two smaller springs, which is what made the clutch inoperable.

The next time was on the 1983 240D I have now. All of the sudden, while driving, no more clutch. No pop, just no clutch. Stopped, no fluid in the reservoir. Filled it, and pumped the clutch, nothing. Looked around and found the hard clutch line had cracked nearly in half at the connection point on the bell housing. New fitting and all was well. Too much trouble to replace the whole line.

So, it can be hydraulic or mechanical. For now, just put it in gear, let the glow plugs glow for a few cycles and then start it. In gear. It will fire and you drive, shifting without a clutch. Works fine until you stop, at which point you put it in neutral, shut the engine down, put it in gear and fire up when the time to go arrives. Takes a few minutes to get the hang of it, and in traffic it will be cumbersome. But it will get you home, or to the shop to have it fixed.

Good luck,

Jim

[chetwesley]

Here is an update - I will go check a few things and get back to you on your questions - but here's what happened.

So california has a service where they will tow your car off the freeway, tax dollars doing something at least. While I am sitting waiting, I try messing around with putting the car into gear a little. I notice it will go into gear with the car OFF if I press in the pedal and shift it... So I try putting it into gear, pushing in the clutch, and starting. Even though I have the clutch pedal in, the car moves when the starter spins the engine, which means the car is in gear even though I have the pedal in... well interesting but not much use on the side of a busy freeway.

The very nice gentleman shows up and tows it off the freeway a few blocks from my work.

After the guy leaves, I try an experiment - I put the car in first with the car off, and start it (again, holding the pedal in, but it still seems to be in gear), letting the starter push me along. I let it keep going and give it a little gas and wham! I am moving. I can't shift out of first though. When I let the clutch pedal out, I can tell it is letting the clutch engage more than when I have the pedal in, but putting the pedal in still does not allow me to shift into second - it doesn't seem to disengage the clutch out completely, but somewhat.

So anyway, I manage to limp it to my work parking lot in first gear at 15mph or so, leaving a trail of smoke behind me (I am learning I burn a little oil, especially reving high in 1st ). At least I don't have to worry about tickets or getting towed while it is here.

No problems with the brakes as far as I can tell.

So does that info shed any more light? I'll go check on the rear resivoir and if there is oil on the carpet - though I did look quickly and didn't see anything.

Oh one other thing to mention because someone mentioned the chattering transmission - my transmission did used chatter a lot when it was at low RPMs and I had it out of gear the clutch pedal out, so I would commonly just hold the pedal in when at a stop, which would make it stop chattering.

Also, before this problem, the pedal seemed to be a little notchy when letting it up - it didn't stick really - still had plenty of spring, just felt a little "notchy" at a point or two coming up - never thought much of it though.

Thanks for your help as always guys, you are a life saver.

[curtludwig]

Yeah you got no clutch...
Its "in gear" when you put it in gear, what you're not getting is clutch disengagement.

In fact you CAN shift from first to second without the clutch. You should have practiced this before you needed it but thems the breaks. All you need to do is get going good, then rev it a bit more, ease off the throttle snap the shifter into neutral, now match the revs to what they would be if you were in second (probably something like 80% of what they are at that speed in 1st). 240Ds don't have tachs so its a guess, then push the shifter into second. It'll jolt a bit, you may grind a bit, be persistant. Same for third and fourth. For a stoplight just kill the engine. Its not pretty but you can drive it.

Stop by the parts store for a can of brake fluid, make sure the resevior is FULL. Drive with the clutch pedal to the floor to help bleed the system and then pump it a couple times to see if it comes back.

Good luck!

[chetwesley]

Ok, just checked out the other things mentioned:

1. No oil on the carpet. I felt around the firewall inside the cabin, and couldn't feel any oil.

2. Resivoir is not low. It is not up to the max, but no where near the min.

I have a 45 mile drive home and traffic is crazy here. I don't think I am going to pull off the driving with no clutch thing.

What does "I have no clutch" mean? In terms of $$, parts, and time?

[pop & blow]

Clutch has gone presure plate springs have broken disk is worn out, Time for a clutch job, Bring it to me 500.00 + PARTS proably end up costing around 850.00 if you let me do it.

[curtludwig]

Originally Posted by chetwesley

Ok, just checked out the other things mentioned:

1. No oil on the carpet. I felt around the firewall inside the cabin, and couldn't feel any oil.

2. Resivoir is not low. It is not up to the max, but no where near the min.

I have a 45 mile drive home and traffic is crazy here. I don't think I am going to pull off the driving with no clutch thing.

What does "I have no clutch" mean? In terms of $$, parts, and time?

Deep breath. Now go get a stinking bottle of brake fluid and fill the stupid resevior to the TOP already! Theres a segment of it you can't see (I've never been able to anyway) so your brake segments are both full but the clutch segment isn't. The only way I know of to fill the clutch segment is over the top of the rear brake segment, they don't share fluid...

You know how the clutch works? Think of the flywheel as a spinning plate, the clutch is on the transmission and contacts the flywheel under spring pressure taking that spin and putting it into the transmission. Your clutch pedal actuates a hydraulic cylinder which pushes fluid through a hose and actuates another cylinder which pushes the clutch plate away from the flywheel. On your car the fluid has leaked out and theres not enough pressure to move the clutch plate.
Its possible you've got a tiny leak and have just now finally lost that last drop that made the difference between go and no-go and filling it back up may give you proper pressure for years.

You're in so Cal? I know what its like driving there, wait until 11pm and go home or get a tow, but try adding fluid first, it probably won't take much.

[chetwesley]

Yea, sorry, I should have mentioned that I could not tell exactly where the dividing line was between the front and rear of the reservoir, but that it seemed to have fluid... actually, it was really hard to tell in the back, but it looked dark up past the seam between the top part and bottom part of the reservoir. I couldn't see fluid moving back there though actually, only in the front when I rocked the reservoir a little.

I am in Northern California. I live in the east bay but work in the southern peninsula.

Pop and blow, did you read the rest of the post? - it doesn't sound to me to be what you are saying. I live clear across the US from you anyway.

Thanks.

[chetwesley]

PS so you are saying that I should just fill up the reservoir all the way and that will be the only way to make sure the back is really getting full?

Also thanks for the explanation about the clutch. I did generally understand how the clutch works other than how the hydraulic part of it actually works.

Sorry one other thing, but I just want to make sure I am not being dense - the reservoir I am supposed to be looking at is the one right in front of the drivers seat near the firewall, right (in the engine compartment, of course)?

[charmalu]

If you do need to do a clutch over haul, you can do it in your driveway.
the transmission doesn`t weigh all that much and don`t need a trans. jack.

I pulled a couple at PNP and was surprised how light they are.

start checking the small easy things first. the parts would end up costing more than a parts car.

more than likely it is something simple.


I just went through the same thing last July in my Datsun PU. was on a MB run to
PNP, and as I pulled ut to PNP the clutch goes to the floor. well the slave cylinder went out.
Darn thing had been giving me plenty of warning for a long time. If it works,
don`t fix it.

so I had to drive back home,(after my MB haul) 22 miles.

like the guys said, start her in first gear. she will buck a little getting going.
you don`t need to red line it, just pick up speed and as yuou let off the fuel, there will
be slack in the gears between acceleration and decelleration. in that inbetween area,
bull back on the stick, hesatate a second and pull it into 2nd. and the same through
the rest of the gears.

shifting w/o the clutch on the up shift, you let the RPM`s drop a little.
that is when the stick is pulled into nutural, before sliding into the next gear.

Down shifting w/o the clutch, you raise the RPM`s. so going to 3rd from 4th. push the stick
into nutural, raise the RPM`s, and push the stick into 3rd and so fourth.

I haven`t driven a 240 stick, but driving large trucks this works good. cars and
PU trucks this is a little more difficult. but it can be done.

now that I completely confused you.....


Charlie

[kerry]

If your problem is hydraulic and not mechanical, you can sometimes get the clutch to function by pumping it. Don't rely on just one push to the floor. Pump it a few times and hold it down. It may release.
Driving without a clutch can be a bit dicey, but if you have some time to practice before hitting heavy traffic, you may be able to pull it off. Or, drive it home late at night when there isn't much traffic.
When it comes to shifting up and down without a clutch, I find that that holding the shifter against the gear with slight pressure while seeking the proper rpm will help it slide smoothly into the next gear when the rpms of the engine match the spinning gear. In other words, for upshifts, go to high rpm's in first gear, then let off the accelerator, this will allow you to pull the shifter into neutral and slightly pull back on the shifter into second while the rpm's drop to the right level. Do the opposite for downshifts, holding the shifter into the lower gear as you rev the engine. After you practice it for a while, you'll wonder why you ever used a clutch.