I'm new here so I apologize for bringing up what I'm sure is an old standard. I've used Redline and think maybe it helps. I've heard of using a can of motor oil in the tank. Brake fluid at fillups. Of course, driving wide open until carbon is gone or I'm in jail. Reaming out chambers through glow plug hole (I haven't found anything about that in the past listings here). I'm aware of the additives list, but I'm inquiring about the advantages and limitations of the more obscure solutions (particularly cleaning the prechambers mechanically).
Thanks for all the good information and particularly for the spirit of help and support.

__________________
Dan Stadt
'85 300D turbo
'79 300SD
'73 220D

Dan,

Brake fluid is a new one on me. I use just a few ounces of cheap clean oil with fill ups for the lubricity. The 616 and 617 engines have pumps that were designed for the lower sulpher content fuel that we use today. Unless the pump has been updated with hardened barrels, you need to add just a few ounces for injection pump health.

Actually there is no such thing as carbon in a diesel engine. This is probably only semantics, because there is cruddy goo that is a combination of soot and oil. If you are getting so much that you find it necessary to clean out the prechambers and glow plug ports, I would expect that your engine is very tired.

Good luck,

Or the revised term, goo build up; certainly more elegent.
My daughter's car is a '77 240D and with some glow plug problems I called Bosch tech and they suggested the problem was caused by "carbon build up" and could ultimately be fixed by removing the chambers and cleaning them. Their new fast glow retro kit was the easy fix and more than satisfactory. But the confusing thing is this car runs as well or better than any of the eight 240-300 I have contact with. Thus my confusion about the goo problem.
The added oil for the pump makes a lot of sense.
Thanks,

__________________
Dan Stadt
'85 300D turbo
'79 300SD
'73 220D

Hi Dan,
I am fairly new to working on Diesel engines so please excuse my ignorance. I have a fairly well taken care of 1981 240D that was passed on to me (although from my previous discussions it would not appear so).
I am not sure what the problem is with your daughter's 240D. You say it runs better than most others you come into contact with... Is it having trouble charging the glow plugs?
The things I do to my car on a regular basis is 1) Add Redline Diesel Catalyst on every fill up. 2) Fill my fuel filter with ATF before installing a new one [this seems to do a very good job of literally burning all of the gunk that develops in the fuel injectors. When you crank it the first time and take off... lots of smoke will come out of the exhaust... after a few days the smoke is pretty much gone.]

I am a bit curious of how you would clean the chambers out and this new fast glo retro kit (is there a website?). Again my ignorance precedes me because I am wondering whether you add a few ounces of oil in your fuel tank or where?

SB

Side question: How does your daughters car handle hills? I am assuming it is a 616 engine as well... mine tends to struggle where on a highway with a 45 - 50 mph posting I would have to go into second gear! I am trying to determine whether this is a design problem or simply a problem that I need to fix. Thanks!

My daughter's car had trouble starting and actually burned out the plug closest to the firewall two or three times in a row. (within two weeks) Bosch said it was carbon build up and the quick fix was Bosch number 0 250 201 955-4N3, the retro glow plug kit for pre-'82 cars (this is a new kit, as I understand it). It contains four redesigned plugs, a computer modual, and wiring harness. It is the best. Her car starts like the '85 300D I drive. What I don't get is her carbon (goo) buildup is so bad as to require this modification to even keep functioning glow plugs, but it really runs great (slow, but great).

Her 240 is an automatic and it works to pull hills. I think the timing chain is due. I'm trying get the nerve up to do that (if I rent the tool to crimp the chain link, then I should do all of ours; that would be four cars and four chains; four have already been done). My other daughter's '82 240D has a new chain, is a four speed, and does much better pulling itself up hills.

Thanks for you comments.

__________________
Dan Stadt
'85 300D turbo
'79 300SD
'73 220D

Dan,

There are two additives sold by PartsShop that may help you. They are both made by Lubro-Moly. One is, PRO-LINE DIESEL INJECTOR CLEANER, and the other is DIESEL PURGE.

http://www.peachparts.com/additives.htm

Of course, there's also Lubro-Moly's, OIL SLUDGE REMOVER, and DIESEL HI-TEST, as well as the Redline products.

I use Redline 85+ at every fill-up, and have great power and very little smoke even at hard acceleration. I'm not sure about the advantages of adding motor oil to your fuel. But if Larry Bible says that it's a good idea, I would seriously consider it! When they removed the aromatics from diesel fuel a few years ago, it did become a little less oily and more of a solvent, so I can see what his reasoning might be.

silverbullet,

I wonder how your car is even able to start with a fuel filter full of transmission fluid. I really don't think burning a high concentration of that stuff could be good for the engine or the environment. I wouldn't do it. If anything, I might put some Redline mixed with diesel in the new filter to get a higher concentration of the additive to the injectors and pump.

I would suggest that if anyone uses ATF, or motor oil as a fuel additive, that it be added to the fuel tank prior to refueling in order to disperse more evenly and provide better all around lubrication to the top end, rings, fuel pump and injectors. Too much of anything isn't good for you or your car...

However, I have never known anyone who added ATF or motor oil to their fuel in heavy commercial diesel engines. The only things added are anti-gel during winter months or additives for increasing cetane ratings like the Redline products.

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

Scott,

I know the ATF in the fuel filter doesn't sound right, and I've never personally done it. There was a post here, however, by an MB Tech telling of being told at an MB tech training session to do this.

I can, however, see how the engine would run on the ATF. A diesel will run on about any oil, diesel is just a light weight oil.

Again, I understand your skepticism, which actually I share with you, but this is what I read here at Mshop.

Have a great day,

Larry,

You know a lot about diesel Mercedes' and have contributed to this forum in more ways than anyone could possibly calculate. I have read numerous posts from you in the archives. In fact, on this very subject! And that is why I am amazed that you would even imply that this was right. Yes, I suppose diesel fuel could be seen as "just light weight oil", but what's the flashpoint of ATF?

I called my local Mercedes Dealer, three Professional Heavy Truck diesel repair shops, and finally, a local fuels and lubricants dealer who supplies service stations and truck stops. They all agreed that adding anything other than Redline, or another specifically formulated diesel additive was unnecessary, and unwise.

In the old days, this was done as a matter of personal choice, based mainly upon legend. But even with low sulphur fuels (and get ready for phase III here in California), additional lubricity and cetane enhancers are best supplied via the recognized diesel additive manufacturer's products. Although the local MB shop tech I spoke to said that it was done as a matter of course a few years ago, and not so much anymore.

BTW, the posting you referenced about a MB tech being "told at an MB tech training session" to do this, was only told to add ATF to the fuel, and wasn't saying that you should fill your fuel filter with ATF when changing it.

I did an exhaustive search on this subject in the archives, and this was all I could find that seemed pertinent:

The exact Quote was "Adding transmission fluid to your fuel, lubricates the springs and plungers inside the injectors and injection pump. This will quiet down those noisy injectors and improve spray patterns. This was taught at MB tech school. And chances are most people are more likely to have a quart of ATF around the house than a can of diesel fuel. Convenience and preventative maintainance." from a member calling himself "Beatle Juice" Fuel Filter Replacement

Short of hearing from this member directly, this sounds like hearsay evidence to me...

Hell, one ol' boy I spoke to at a truck repair facility said that it would do considerably more damage than good to fill up the filter with ATF, and could only contribute to clogging injectors due to the high amount of smoke being created...

Also, adding ATF to your #2 diesel may cause you legal problems if, by some odd chance, you are stopped by the EPA as part of a randon fuel sampling program, and they notice that your fuel is pink, or reddish in colour, which indicates the use of untaxed, and illegal for street & highway use "offroad" diesel fuel. Then you gotta explain how you add ATF to your fuel, and wait while they have a sample lab tested.

Bottom Line: My advice would be to stick with DFC, 85+, etc.

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

longston,

I agree with you that this sounds bizarre, and as I said, I would not do this myself. Forget it, I just wouldn't do it. But I am POSITIVE that I read this somewhere, from an MB Tech that indicated he had been told this at a technical seminar or some such. I suppose it's possible I read it in ancient Star magazine, but that sounds bizarre too. Anyway, I KNOW that I read it somewhere. I'm pretty sure it was on this forum.

I'm sure this was not a wild dream, I read it somewhere.

But, don't get me wrong. I am NOT an advocate of this procedure. I was merely pointing out that there was someone who SAID that they heard this from some official source.

I agree with you, I really don't understand how ATF ever got to a point of being thought of as a miracle, cure-all drug for your car.

Again, I was only commenting about what I read which was written by an MB tech. I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS PRACTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, if the engine would actually run on ATF, and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, it probably wouldn't do any permanent damage. I will, however, let someone else perform the experiment on their own car, I won't try it on mine.

I'm sorry that I didn't originally make myself clear.

Have agreat day,

[Edited by LarryBible on 02-16-2001 at 06:46 AM]

Scott,
I'd have to say I don't know the particulars of the ATF addition to the fuel filter during installation... it was recommended to me by my current neighbor who worked at a Benz dealership for a number of years and later at Sears Point Raceway for a few racing teams. He is quite knowledgeable and if I catch him one day I will ask him about the science behind adding ATF to your fuel filter (he usually knows the theory as well as how to do things... unlike most mech's I've been in contact with).

But since this is not a practice I have never seen in published literature from MB personally... it is best if you don't do it. But I have not had any bad experiences by doing it yet (only good clean exhaust...).

I have not heard about these EPA fuel pullovers... What a scary thought... pretty soon they will start doing random smog checks, oil leak citations, etc. The good thing about the ATF in the filter is that it burns right away b/c the filter fuel is pushed towards the injectors to do its cleaning...

READERS,
Before using ANY additive, be sure to read the directions on the bottle. Some products like Lubro-Moly's Diesel Purge requires you to disconnect your fuel line and run the engine off of the chemical alone, and is recommended for use only by experienced techs or shops. I don't know what would happen if it is just poured into your fuel tank.

I really appreciate and respect the comments everyone is putting in this discussion and it has prompted me to see personally exactly what ATF is and what possible damage it could do to an engine given how fuel is burned and the paths it travels. If I get anything to prove this to be a hazard or a benefit, I will let you know.

BEST,
SB


PS: Lubro-Moly has put out 15W-40 engine oil specifically for diesels! It works great... After 300 miles of driving my oil doesn't look "as black" as it usually does on the dip stick. It's not synthetic... but it seems to work good. Check it out if you get a chance.

Maybe you both misunderstood what you heard/were told about filling the filter? Maybe they said to add some to the filter, or lubricate the o-ring seal on the filter?

One mechanic I spoke to said that a concentration of ATF could damage your pump and injectors just by it's higher viscosity alone!

I say that anything that produces more smoke can't be good if the idea is to reduce the smoke in the first place.

And as for the EPA jazz, they do have random roadside inspections of heavy trucks where they take a fuel sample and check to color of the fuel, they insert a probe into the exhaust stack and actually do a smog test (mainly for soot and excessive smoke), and will look for both fuel and oil leaks. Any excessive leaks will get you an "out of service" sticker and you will sit there until repairs have been made, and a re-inspection has been performed and passed.

They do this here on Hwy 37, Hwy 116, and Hwy 121 right by Sears Point Raceway... The good news for now is that I don't have any evidence that they are pulling over non-commercial vehicles like cars and pick ups.

As for Lubro-Moly products, if you want to see the whole line you need to go to: http://www.liqui-moly.de. The parent company in Germany is "Liqui-Moly".

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

Thanks for the comments. I spoke with the parts manager at a local MB dealership and he said basically the following.

1) You will not find any "published info. about ANY fuel additives from MB" However, mechanics and owners have picked up little tricks along the way, including ATF, and have done so with great success.

2) The ATF acts as a detergent and basically cleans the system. So it won't hurt anything. However, he WOULD NOT prime the system by filling the primary filter completely with ATF. He would, and has, primed the system with half ATF and half Redline or regular fuel.

3) When filling up the car, he has used half redline and half ATF to a full tank of gas (3 oz of each). However if you get "good clean fuel" and you change your filters regularly, you shouldn't have to add anything.

Again, this is something shops as well as owners have picked up along the way. MB has never came out and said you should put "anything" in your fuel tank besides diesel fuel. But then again, they never said not to. And I think it is the later that many diesel lovers have adopted to. The MB service manager doesn't agree with my neighbor, but then again... he doesn't think he is wrong. You can get from point A to Z many different ways... the most effective route remains to be determined.

It is ultimately YOUR vehicle and whether you take the chance of adding ATF or Redline... its your choice. I am sorry if it seemed like I was telling the forum they should start adding ATF to their vehicles. I was speaking from my own experience of what I have done to my car, and that is all.

I hope this helps clear things up.

SB

What happened to Dan Stadt? This has become a discussion about the merits and drawbacks of ATF as an additive (not that there's anything wrong with that), but I am wondering if any of this has helped solve the problems that initiated this thread. Dan, check back in, would you?

I think that it's real possible that this whole filter full of ATF deal was started by a mechanic who had to change a filter, and didn't have any fuel available, and/or didn't want to drain out some from the tank to fill the filter, so he got creative, and used ATF. Also, his creativity may have been a result of knowledge handed down from other mechanics' stories of using ATF as an additive in gasoline and/or diesel engines. I think this could stem from the fact that ATF has been used as a pre-flush in the engine oil before changing the oil & filter because of it's detergent qualities.

And SB, don't think that anyone is accusing you of trying to influence the membership to use ATF, or to fill their fuel filter with it when changing said filter. That's what's great about this forum. We can all feel free to exchange ideas, debate new concepts, pass on tips and tricks, ask questions and get advice.

When I read your comments about being a new MB diesel owner who was filling your fuel filter with ATF at every filter change, my (with all due respect) Bravo Sierra detector went off, and I had to know what was up with this concept. I responded because it seemed to me that you might of had the idea that the smoke coming out of your car after using the ATF to prime the fuel filter was the "crud" on your injectors and in the combustion chamber being burnt off. I think all you are doing is burning the ATF, and adding to the crud.

As an example of what I am saying, here's a quote from: http://www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/atfchnges.html

"At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and takes on a smell like burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid s lubricating qualities and friction characteristics, varnish begins to form on internal parts... YOW! I don't want to burn that stuff in MY engine!

I have numerous years experience driving and maintaining commercial diesel powered vehicles. Never heard of any ATF being added to the fuel filters on those rigs. When I bought my 300SD, the former owner GAVE me a bottle of 85+ with title and the keys to the car! They had used it (or DFC) for at least 10 years, and swore by it. The Service Manager at the Mercedes dealership in my area also suggested using 85+ to me when I was still shopping for the car. But no one ever told me to use ATF. The real big difference here is that ATF is NOT formulated to be burned as a fuel, or fuel additive, but Redline Diesel Fuel Catalyst, and 85+ are...

But one other thing about this forum is that these postings are archived for anyone to see now, or in the forseable future. If any one of us passes on knowledge that was simply hearsay, or was derived from less than scientific means, we are, potentialy at least, only helping to perpetuate a myth.

Until I see hard evidence that something is either the right or the wrong thing to do for or to my car, I can only continue to ask questions, and get opinions of experts. It's a food of knowledge kind of thing for me. If I found out that what I considered to be a wacky concept actually turned out to be a top secret insider's formula to improve performance or longevity of my vehicle, I'd be evangelizing it to everyone. Of course, the opposite is also true.

Now Ist Time For Der "Unofficial" Disklamber:

Remember that the opinions expressed on this forum are simply the opinion(s) of the individual poster(s), and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the general membership at large, previous posters on this thread, MercedesShop, Mercedes Benz, and/or Daimler Chrysler. MercedesShop is in no way affiliated with, or endorsed by Mercedes Benz, and/or Daimler Chrysler. The advice given here is strictly to be used for entertainment purposes only, and there are no warranties expressed or implied as to the quality, or factual basis of any and/or all of the information posted on this forum. The repeated use of the MercedesShop forums has been found to be habit-forming. It is not recommended that you drive or operate heavy machinery while using these forums. Your mileage and other results may vary...

And always remember kids: "MercedesShop.com, LLC takes no responsibility whatsoever for any technical assistance offered by anyone in the Shop Forum. The Risk is 100% yours.."



[Edited by longston on 02-17-2001 at 05:20 PM]

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

I have run ATF in VW's and GM diesels with no ill effects. The practice was actually recommended to me by both a local diesel shop and a VW Diesel Tech website. The ATF in the new filter is an old trick. The theory is that the additional lubricity and detergency will clean out deposits in the injectors and fuel system. I haven't done this recently as I am currently running a fuel additive called Stanadyne Performance Formula. Stanadyne makes the rotary injection pumps on Ford, GM, etc. diesels, so I figure if they design the pumps, they should know.... It's also one of the few that have been proven to work with fleet testing. If you want to add a cheap lubricity boost to your fuel, try 2-cycle oil that is intended to be mixed with gasoline. Some of the truck guys are doing this and report good results. At least the 2-cycle stuff is meant to burn. I have used the Redline and had good results. As far as Dan Stadt and the carbon problem, a couple of tankfuls with a good additive, Redline, Stanadyne, etc. and running the engine HARD, under load will remove the carbon pretty quickly. RT

I stand by all of my previous comments. I made a lot of phone calls, and asked a lot of pertinent questions of people who know their businesses. From Mercedes dealers, to independent Mercedes shops, to commercial diesel repair shops, to fuel and lubricant wholesalers, to transmission shops and ATF manufacturers! They all said that ATF in your fuel filter in that concentration was a bad idea! And they were "iffy" about even adding it to your fuel system at all.

There really is nothing else I can say except that VW originally transformed their gas engines into diesels which resulted in well-documented major problems. Mercedes, on the other hand had long since been producing diesel powered cars. Let's not forget that gasoline and diesel are two distinctly different combustion systems. Two-cycle oil has no place in a diesel engine, and ATF is not formulated to be combustible...

I'll say it again, IF SOMETHING PRODUCES SMOKE (and 2-cycle oil definately will), IT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF ELIMINATING SOOT AND CARBON SLUDGE!!!!

I choose to ONLY run RedLine 85+ (or Diesel Fuel Catalyst) as an additive(s) in my diesel's fuel system.

[Edited by longston on 02-21-2001 at 11:51 AM]

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."