I found a web seller using Amazon.com (that has no indicated location BTW!) asking $85 for the 6 mm piezo sensor. http://www.toolsandaccessories.com/r-3752911/m-Tools/b-3752961/a-B00063Y1OW/Default.aspx

I may be in need of such a device, the Ferret. I am just about to use the RIV device but timing is so far off after a rebuild that the engine (603) is really rattling! hopefully this will solve the
Mitch H, is your Feret still available?

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'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

I got the correlation.

I took the SD over to Dieselnut14's place over in Sea Cliff.

The SD is set perfectly at 15° ATDC using the RIV device.

The pulse timing device showed 13.5° BTDC.

At the NJ GTG, he measured six different vehicles, all with 616 and 617 engines. The highest reading was 12° and the lowest was 6°. Clearly, everyone was running with late timing.

So, my best estimate of the proper timing with the pulse device is just about 14° BTDC.

Pulse timing is the defacto method. This method gives you proper injection timing regardless of pop-pressure or chain stretch. This is what you want; injection should take place at 15 atdc or whatever the manufacturers spec. is for proper combustion. I guess the point is, set the pulse reading at 15 atdc and forget about the rest.

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Brian,

Thanks. This is info I can use..... if I get a pulse timer.

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The Golden Rule

1984 300SD (bought new, sold it in 1988, bought it back 13 yrs. later)

How does that compare with using a tool like this:



They mount to the same hole, they use the same "nub" to monitor the internal position of the cam, but is the $40 tool as accurate as the electronic gizmo?

-Tad

Attached Thumbnails

 

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15° BTDC

Save your money.

I bought one of those and never could get it to find the "nub" in the IP. I believe that the slot on that tool is very narrow and the spring tension will barely allow the tool to pickup on the slot. So, it's a two man job. One man to rotate the crank........ever so slowly.......which is very difficult.......and one man to carefully watch this tool for movement. You can easily go right past the notch. I presume that's what happened to me. Never felt anything while I carefully rotated the engine from down below.

Then, once you engage the notch, you read the crank damper. If it's not correct, you must remove the tool, move the IP, blindly, and repeat the process all over again until you get it right. It would take forever. The RIV tool is $300.00 but it's worth every penny of it.

With the RIV tool, you set the engine to 15ATDC, install the tool, move the injection pump until both lights come on, tighten the pump, make sure you still have the lights, remove the tool. You are done.

Go and rent the RIV tool. It's on the rental program. Hefty deposit required, however.

Uh, sometime back you described the RIV procedure using ATDC:
Specialized Indicator for IP Timing
don't confuse me I'm going to perform this tomorrow, most likely after a strong cup of coffee

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'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

I did.

And the reading of 15 ATDC does apply when the RIV tool is used.

However, Bajaman wishes to use the pulse generator. Then, the reading of 15 BTDC would apply. You could never set 15 ATDC with the pulse method. The IP does not have sufficient range and the engine would run horribly.......if at all.

Wow, just for the piezo clamp?. I'll sell you a Ferret 765 with a 6mm sensor for $150, it's got about 1/2 hour of attempted use on it. The pop pressure on my 300kmi injectors must be quite low. Probably why an old Benz sounds so noisy when you put new injectors in it.

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'79 300SD W116
'86 190E 2.3-16V W201
'92 300D 2.5 W124
'99 E320 4MATIC S210

I thought about that today, as I worked on the 603, and figured it all out the fuel timing sensor is BTDC to allow compression and ultimately the fuel ignites. AH yes its all clear. But I still have a problem. Or two.

First I replaced the 120 Amp single wire alternator off a CLK, it was wearing the serp belt despite my using a thinck washer to space the pulley away form the alternator, it still didn;t line up perfectly. Turns out the alternator I installed doesn't charge, I just drove home (not a long distance fortunately) from the shop where I use their lift, and had to set up a charger on the battery (A Brand new Interstate) because it wouldn't start after switching the engine off a few minutes. I believe I almost drained it cranking the engine to drive air out of the lines. Why didn't MB put a manual primer pump in the 603?

Anyhow I checked IP timing, it was close to 17 degrees ATDC. Spec is 15 +/- 1.5 degrees. so I am a hair advanced, only 1/2 degree out of spec. The RIV tool was a dream to use BTW!

Unfortunately the engine still rattles. Noisy valves at idle, the noise goes away over about 1000 RPM. Plenty of power. The exhaust migh smell a little like raw fuel to my noise but I have to check it again after some of the fuel evaporates off the IP where it bubbled down (I forgot to loosen the fuel cap and it was under pressure and some came out of the delivery nozzles when I started yanking lines.)

Then I swapped a set of injectors into the car off an engine I had access to, thinking it might be the newly calibrated Bosch injectors. Wrong!
Still rattling the same. What else can it be? I can't believe the slightly late timing could result in that noise. I believe the cam timing must be off. I hope it isn't something with the timing chain I got from Adsitco, it had a slightly different p/n but they specified it for the '87 turbo.
I'm too tired to think anymore about this. Gotta have dinner and contemplate buying the engine/parts car (no ! don't tell my wife! two 603's are enough, she said )
DDH

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'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

I'm sure you mean that you are a hair retarded at 17ATDC.

The retarded timing on the IP is likely due to chain stretch. The cam is probably retarded by 3-4 degrees or so.

But, that amount is not sufficient to cause the "rattling" sound that you mention. Hattie has the SDL at 3.5 degrees late and it does not rattle at all.

Isn't this the new vehicle that has not run much? I would tend to think that dino oil is the culprit in the lifters. We all fight lifter noise from time to time, even with engines on synthetic oil and run frequently. Just when you think you have it licked, one of them starts tapping quite loudly. This usually occurs, for me, after a long hot run. Then, the next day, it's gone again.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the noise until you run it for awhile on synthetic oil.

That RIV tool is a dream..........heh??

Did you reset the IP to 15 ATDC?? In fact, with some chain stretch, you should probably be at 13.5 ATDC or about.

What chain stretch? Its a new chain.
And I can't put the blame on oil. Its got new lifters and I'm using 15W40 Delo because I can't use synthetic until the new rings are worn in.

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'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

Which engine is this?? Didn't you get a new 603 in a W124 on the cheap?? I thought that one was the vehicle that needed a timing check??

I think he is talking about the one he rebuilt.

Did you get the injectors tested?? Since it is a fresh engine I would think the noise would be fuel related. The lifters shouldn't make any noise.

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