Specialized Indicator for IP Timing
 

Diesel Timing Static Position Indicator
MB P/N: 617 589 08 21 00

Anyone interested in pooling some funds together to purchase and share this specialized tool useful in setting IP timing for the following engines:
601, 602.91 /.93 /.94 /.96, 603.91 /.93 / .96 /.97, 605, 606, 617.93 / .95

Samstag Sales has it for $329.95 +S/H...

I can't afford one for myself, so I thought this might be a better way for many of us. Let me know if there's an interest...

Thanks,
-Ken

I will loan mine out for 1 week@ $25. ! OF course I will need a deposit of $150 up front!

I might just take you up on that...deposit and all...look for email from me...:)

Since you actually own the tool and are therefore obviously in the know... Is the procedure calling for the use of the position indicator inherently better than the Jim Mahaffey (MercedesList) method whereby one looks for fuel to well up in the bottom of the injector valve? I would suspect it would be easier and perhaps more accurate (although I am NOT knocking Jim's procedure)...

Thanks,
-Ken

I recently had the pleasure of using the RIV lights to set timing on the SD, courtesy of one of our esteemed members.

By far, its a fabulous tool. Once you get the lower bolt released, you can set timing in about 10 minutes and it is guaranteed to be accurate within about 1/4 degree. It simply does not compare with the traditional method.

I was considering buying one and putting it in the rental pool. But, if MB Doc is willing to rent his for $25.00, that is definitely the way to go.

Brian,

Can you tell us a little more about the procedure using this tool. I have never even heard of it.

First, it only works on the newer IP's with the removable plug on the outside.

The IP needs to have the "notch" on the rotating shaft.

You remove the plug on the IP and thread the pickup of the RIV tool into the threaded hole being careful to engage the slot.

Connect the positive lead to the battery.

Set the engine at 15 ATDC on the power stroke.

Loosen all screws holding the IP and remove the hard lines.


There are two lights on the display of the RIV tool, "B" and "A". The "B" light is illuminated when the timing is early. Rotate the pump away from the engine until both lights are lit. If you go slightly too far, the "A" light will illuminate telling you the timing is late. Rotate the pump back towards the engine until both lights are on.

Carefully tighten the IP screws and install the hard lines.

Remove the pickup from the side of the IP and reinstall the plug.

Disconnect the cable to the battery.

You are done.:cool:

Sweet!

Did you notice that your timing was off by much?

How was the running and driving after setting it?

I learned of it from W126 Service library 07.1-111 procedure, which can be found here.

-Ken

Can you you use a pulse injection adaptor to time these engines.That is what I use to time my truck.If so what is the timing supose to be set at.

Russell, sorry for the delay in response..........I've been away for most of the month.

I can't tell you the results of setting the injection timing as it was performed immediately after replacing the cylinder head, with completely new exhaust valves and new prechambers.

But, the timing was definitely late by about 3-4 degrees. I needed to rotate the pump up near the top of its range. The camshaft is late by 2.5 degrees on the crank using the marks on the cam tower.

You can, and it's even faster than the RIV tool. But, we need to get a proper correlation between the RIV tool and the pulse tool. I have the SD set exactly at 15°ATDC with the RIV tool and I need to contact Dieselnut14 and test the SD with the pulse injection system. Then there will be a direct correlation between the two methods.

Worked like a charm on my SDL. I'd probably buy one if they were cheaper. But you really don't have to time a diesel often.

Brian Carlton,

If you do get the corelation of the pulse indicator number for the correct timing, please put it in this thread. I've been thinking of a Ferret 765 with a 6mm. piezo adapter for Christmas.

How much will you give me for mine?
I could never get it to work on my 300SD, which likely has 300kmi on the injectors. I don't know if my injector pop pressure is too low or if the lines are too thick. I suspect the latter. I want to get a 5mm piezo pickup and try it on my OM602.

I'll get the correlation. Just need to make contact with Dieselnut14 and make a trip to Sea Cliff.

I found a web seller using Amazon.com (that has no indicated location BTW!) asking $85 for the 6 mm piezo sensor. http://www.toolsandaccessories.com/r-3752911/m-Tools/b-3752961/a-B00063Y1OW/Default.aspx

I may be in need of such a device, the Ferret. I am just about to use the RIV device but timing is so far off after a rebuild that the engine (603) is really rattling! hopefully this will solve the
Mitch H, is your Feret still available?

I got the correlation.

I took the SD over to Dieselnut14's place over in Sea Cliff.

The SD is set perfectly at 15° ATDC using the RIV device.

The pulse timing device showed 13.5° BTDC.

At the NJ GTG, he measured six different vehicles, all with 616 and 617 engines. The highest reading was 12° and the lowest was 6°. Clearly, everyone was running with late timing.

So, my best estimate of the proper timing with the pulse device is just about 14° BTDC.

In my opinion
 

Pulse timing is the defacto method. This method gives you proper injection timing regardless of pop-pressure or chain stretch. This is what you want; injection should take place at 15 atdc or whatever the manufacturers spec. is for proper combustion. I guess the point is, set the pulse reading at 15 atdc and forget about the rest.

Brian,

Thanks. This is info I can use..... if I get a pulse timer. ;)

How does that compare with using a tool like this:

http://www.zdmak.com/mbsirs-130.jpg

They mount to the same hole, they use the same "nub" to monitor the internal position of the cam, but is the $40 tool as accurate as the electronic gizmo?

-Tad

15° BTDC;)

Save your money.

I bought one of those and never could get it to find the "nub" in the IP. I believe that the slot on that tool is very narrow and the spring tension will barely allow the tool to pickup on the slot. So, it's a two man job. One man to rotate the crank........ever so slowly.......which is very difficult.......and one man to carefully watch this tool for movement. You can easily go right past the notch. I presume that's what happened to me. Never felt anything while I carefully rotated the engine from down below.

Then, once you engage the notch, you read the crank damper. If it's not correct, you must remove the tool, move the IP, blindly, and repeat the process all over again until you get it right. It would take forever. The RIV tool is $300.00 but it's worth every penny of it.

With the RIV tool, you set the engine to 15ATDC, install the tool, move the injection pump until both lights come on, tighten the pump, make sure you still have the lights, remove the tool. You are done.:cool:

Go and rent the RIV tool. It's on the rental program. Hefty deposit required, however.

Uh, sometime back you described the RIV procedure using ATDC:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/1033162-post6.html
don't confuse me I'm going to perform this tomorrow, most likely after a strong cup of coffee ;)

I did.

And the reading of 15 ATDC does apply when the RIV tool is used.

However, Bajaman wishes to use the pulse generator. Then, the reading of 15 BTDC would apply. You could never set 15 ATDC with the pulse method. The IP does not have sufficient range and the engine would run horribly.......if at all.

Wow, just for the piezo clamp?. I'll sell you a Ferret 765 with a 6mm sensor for $150, it's got about 1/2 hour of attempted use on it. The pop pressure on my 300kmi injectors must be quite low. Probably why an old Benz sounds so noisy when you put new injectors in it.

I thought about that today, as I worked on the 603, and figured it all out the fuel timing sensor is BTDC to allow compression and ultimately the fuel ignites. AH yes its all clear. But I still have a problem. Or two.

First I replaced the 120 Amp single wire alternator off a CLK, it was wearing the serp belt despite my using a thinck washer to space the pulley away form the alternator, it still didn;t line up perfectly. Turns out the alternator I installed doesn't charge, I just drove home (not a long distance fortunately) from the shop where I use their lift, and had to set up a charger on the battery (A Brand new Interstate) because it wouldn't start after switching the engine off a few minutes. I believe I almost drained it cranking the engine to drive air out of the lines. Why didn't MB put a manual primer pump in the 603?

Anyhow I checked IP timing, it was close to 17 degrees ATDC. Spec is 15 +/- 1.5 degrees. so I am a hair advanced, only 1/2 degree out of spec. The RIV tool was a dream to use BTW!

Unfortunately the engine still rattles. Noisy valves at idle, the noise goes away over about 1000 RPM. Plenty of power. The exhaust migh smell a little like raw fuel to my noise but I have to check it again after some of the fuel evaporates off the IP where it bubbled down (I forgot to loosen the fuel cap and it was under pressure and some came out of the delivery nozzles when I started yanking lines.)

Then I swapped a set of injectors into the car off an engine I had access to, thinking it might be the newly calibrated Bosch injectors. Wrong! :mad:
Still rattling the same. What else can it be? I can't believe the slightly late timing could result in that noise. I believe the cam timing must be off. I hope it isn't something with the timing chain I got from Adsitco, it had a slightly different p/n but they specified it for the '87 turbo.
I'm too tired to think anymore about this. Gotta have dinner and contemplate buying the engine/parts car (no ! don't tell my wife! two 603's are enough, she said :rolleyes: )
DDH

I'm sure you mean that you are a hair retarded at 17ATDC.;)

The retarded timing on the IP is likely due to chain stretch. The cam is probably retarded by 3-4 degrees or so.

But, that amount is not sufficient to cause the "rattling" sound that you mention. Hattie has the SDL at 3.5 degrees late and it does not rattle at all.

Isn't this the new vehicle that has not run much? I would tend to think that dino oil is the culprit in the lifters. We all fight lifter noise from time to time, even with engines on synthetic oil and run frequently. Just when you think you have it licked, one of them starts tapping quite loudly. This usually occurs, for me, after a long hot run. Then, the next day, it's gone again.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the noise until you run it for awhile on synthetic oil.

That RIV tool is a dream..........heh??

Did you reset the IP to 15 ATDC?? In fact, with some chain stretch, you should probably be at 13.5 ATDC or about.

What chain stretch? Its a new chain.
And I can't put the blame on oil. Its got new lifters and I'm using 15W40 Delo because I can't use synthetic until the new rings are worn in.

Which engine is this?? Didn't you get a new 603 in a W124 on the cheap?? I thought that one was the vehicle that needed a timing check??

I think he is talking about the one he rebuilt.

Did you get the injectors tested?? Since it is a fresh engine I would think the noise would be fuel related. The lifters shouldn't make any noise.

Aren't there different timing specs for new vs. old chains?

Danny

As stated, a brand new set ot Bosch rebuilt injectors (not Made in India) gave the same noisy response as a set I borrowed off a SDL engine that I have access to the same engine that now is basically dead because the PO didn't feel like spending $450 to install a new vacuum pump :(
I have a hunch it might be fuel related and wonder if the IP might somehow be involved?
I added a good dose of Cetane booster to the tank, and added fresh fuel but admit it had some old fuel in it, may be a quarter tank. THe strainer was clean when I pumped the fuel out temporarily to replace the fuel hose at the tank.
I sure hope it isn't simply bad fuel after all the trouble, time and energy I've put into this rebuild. I have a good friend who is experienced witht he 603, having rebuilt several of them and plan on driving the car for a while (after I install a new alternator) and see what he thinks after listening to it.
If I had a recorder and a sound card in my computer I could provide a wav file or something, alas I don't have either. Trust me, its not a nice sound! if you ever heard a good running 603 engine they should purr.

Brian said this on that subject:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/972624-post2.html

Simply replacing a worn chain can make acceleration improve dramatically! Best thing I ever did for my '83 300D at 226K miles (besides installing an '85 differential in it!)

You missed my point. Brian touched on it in that thread you linked to:
According to the online FSM it's 9 deg for a new chain 11 deg for an old chain.
Like I said different specs for new vs. old chains.

Danny

Sorry I guess I did miss the point, I don't know the spec

Yes, the hard copy also confirms this. A brand new chain should be at 9° when that 2mm valve lift procedure is utilized. This is for the "05" camshaft.

Samstag's price ain't all that great. The cost has gone up, but you should be able to get it from Rusty or elsewhere for under $300:

:kid:

http://www.w124performance.com/image...__RIV_tool.jpg

The aftermarket (Sir Tools) unit has a poor record... several people have had trouble getting it to locate the tab inside the pump. Buy the genuine Mercedes tool from Rusty or your local dealer. Note that you need to rotate the plunger while turning the crank, it's NOT self-locating. Remember this tool is only intended to be used when installing a pump, not to set the timing once on the car (but many people do this). I have the RIV (A-B light box) tool and I agree, it's worth every penny if you have more than one MB diesel to work on!

http://www.w124performance.com/image..._lock_tool.jpg

Don't mean to bring up an old thread but this one has many problems within that I need to go over.

The chain stretch on my SD is around 2.5-3° at the balancer, so if I tossed in a 4° Woodruff key I'd be around 1° advanced I figure. Would it be smart to time the IP to the 1° advance or to the standard 15° per MB spec for the 617?

Also, my SDL is about 2.5-3° at the balancer too. Again, should it be done to MB spec despite the stretch or do the light math to get it timed to the stretch?



Sorry, it's late and when my mind begins to work. :D

Yeah, there has been discussion on this in the past, with no concrete answer. My opinion is to set the timing to the crankshaft and forget the camshaft. As the chain stretches, the pump timing will become retarded as measured by the crank. I prefer a setting around 14.0, and that's the spec for later (1990+) engines anyway. Maybe 13.5 so as the chain stretches a bit, it settles at 14.0. :)

When using offset keys, do NOT adjust timing for the stretch... install the key to get the cam near zero, and set the IP to 14.0-15.0 against the crank alone.

:cool:

What method did you use to determine your chain stretch?

If you decide to add a woodruff key I would check the timing before trying to adjust it. Adding the key should bring the IP back into time also.

Danny

Standard procedure to check chain stretch is to rotate crank until the cam tower marks line up, then read the TDC pointer on the balancer... usually will be something past 0° TDC. That's the amount of stretch/elongation.

Installing a new chain will, in most cases, return retarded IP timing to normal. Just installing an offset key will not... that will correct cam vs. crank timing, but the chain is still stretched and still leaves the pump timing retarded relative to the crank (and now-corrected cam).

:wacko:

That's not standard procedure. Standard procedure is using the 2mm valve lift method.
You can use the cam marks but they have to be perfectly aligned.

With the 2mm lift method you check the number on the balancer and compare that to specifications provided by Mercedes in the FSM.

If you use the cam marks 2 degrees ATDC is normal. Anything after that is chain stretch. You would NOT want to use this method to pick a woodruff key.

It's all explained here:
http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/OM617TimingChainStretch

As for the IP, unless your using an A-B light it's a PITA to get it right. I would always check before adjusting.

For your reading enjoyment:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/97743-q-timing-chain-stretch.html

Danny

Maybe the OM617's are harder to get via the cam tower marks, but on the OM60x series it's a factory-approved procedure - here's the PDF:

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/OM60X/OM60x_Timing_Chain_TSB.pdf

I did the 2mm lift check with a dial indicator a few times, then repeated the check via the eyeball method on the cam tower marks, and got the same result (with 0.5°) every time. I'd do the eyeball method about 3-5 times and average the results.

I totally agree on the IP timing... the A-B light is by far the best way! The lock tool is not a factory approved procedure, but it will work (it just takes a LOT longer and has some risk involved, if you forget to pull the lock and try to turn the engine!)

:1blank:

OK Dave, I'll bite on this one.

The Woodruff key will return the camshaft to proper timing. But, the IP will still be late.

Why would you not adjust the IP timing to compensate for the chain stretch and thereby match the camshaft?:confused:

Well, it depends on your theory I guess. With the offset key, the cam & crank are in synch. Why would the IP now be late, if set to spec? I still think you'd want the injection cycle to begin at the same point of piston travel, regardless of what the camshaft is doing. If the chain is stretched, that means the IP timing will be retarded, but you'd set that back to spec... but I don't think you'd want to advance it "x" degrees more to account *further* for the stretch. That's what you already did by adjusting the IP timing to spec!


Example:

When new, stretch = zero, IP timing = 15. Now 200kmi later, chain stretch is 4 degrees, and IP timing is late at 17. Use 4° offset key to correct cam back to zero, but IP is still at 17 relative to the crank. So you adjust IP back to 15 and you're done. Why set it to 13... to me, that would be double compensation. Of course, replacing the offending chain would be the preferable solution, especially on a 60x engine where there are no offset keys available.

:o

So there's no gain on, let's say, my SDL by setting the IP to the chain stretch?

I'll just do it to the crank then and be done with it. I'll toss in a Woodruff on the SD when it needs it down the line maybe, or just replace the chain.

Agreed.........;)

This would apply whether you use a Woodruff key or not.

There were some general statements about advancing the IP timing to compensate for chain strectch, but, clearly, this is not correct. Simply adjust the IP back to spec and the chain stretch is compensated.

Thanks for the example.......makes it perfectly clear.

gsxr is correct. Set the IP to the crank, use offset key to match cam to crank, everything is cool.

However, I don't believe the slightly off cam timing really degrades performance as much as slightly off IP timing. My 80 240d has over 340kmiles with the original chain and no offset key, and about 5 degrees of chain wear. It runs fine.

Joe

How often should IP timing be set?