The way i see gas cars compared to diesels - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #31 12-16-2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilbrnr

Now, if Biodiesel was readily available, and at a substantially lower price point than gasoline, we might see a shift in engine offerings in passenger cars. But until that happens...

Yes. But to get there, assuming it is possible, it is going to get more popular. Kinda like the chicken and the egg. I'd love nothing more than for it to get that way. OK, I'd like a night out with Jenna and Briana more but that is a different story.

However, I am not sure I want to fight the trend that is favoring gas. Not sure I want to run against the wind for the hell of it.

greasybenz · #32 12-16-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Yes, the diesel lasts longer but these days with the technology, I think the gas is fast catching up and it costs less.

Yes but what you have to realize is that we dont have enough oil to supply us forever. And sure the gas prices are down now but what says we wont have them back up later?? And who cares about diesel prices?!?!?!! i dont use diesel maybe only to thin oil but im still cutting down on the amout of oil im using by 50% since i only ran 50/50 dino/wvo in the colder weather. Im in all ways against using petroleum fuels only because we have alternatives! and in some cases alot of places sell bio-diesel cheaper than petro diesel and the bio-d is priced the same as gas so whats there to complain about since the gas and bio-d is priced the same?

aklim i suggest you read joshua tickells book "from the fryer to the fuel tank" just to give you a idea on how we are running low on oil and one day the only people that will be drving is people that have alternative fuel cars! And take a look at europe 40% of their cars are diesels! why? because it cuts down on the amount of oil they consume, they are more efficient, and last longer.

you have a E300 diesel their engines dont get that well of mpg's as well as a vw tdi. a tdi can get anywere from 40-56mpg easily a mercedes cant because of the in-direct injection system, the new merc cdi's are direct injection like the vw's and get upwards from 40-50mpg like the vw's and are more powerful so diesel technology is still far ahead of gas technology.

Oilbrnr · #33 12-16-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greasybenz

Yes but what you have to realize is that we dont have enough oil to supply us forever. And sure the gas prices are down now but what says we wont have them back up later?? And who cares about diesel prices?!?!?!! i dont use diesel maybe only to thin oil but im still cutting down on the amout of oil im using by 50% since i only ran 50/50 dino/wvo in the colder weather. Im in all ways against using petroleum fuels only because we have alternatives! and in some cases alot of places sell bio-diesel cheaper than petro diesel and the bio-d is priced the same as gas so whats there to complain about since the gas and bio-d is priced the same?

aklim i suggest you read joshua tickells book "from the fryer to the fuel tank" just to give you a idea on how we are running low on oil and one day the only people that will be drving is people that have alternative fuel cars! And take a look at europe 40% of their cars are diesels! why? because it cuts down on the amount of oil they consume, they are more efficient, and last longer.

you have a E300 diesel their engines dont get that well of mpg's as well as a vw tdi. a tdi can get anywere from 40-56mpg easily a mercedes cant because of the in-direct injection system, the new merc cdi's are direct injection like the vw's and get upwards from 40-50mpg like the vw's and are more powerful so diesel technology is still far ahead of gas technology.

Dunno, I call BS on VW's mpg claims. Maybe down a long hill in winter. With grandma at the wheel. Don't get me wrong, our TDI wagon was great, but here in Phoenix, if it ever got out of the 30's, I'll saw off my left nut.

Look, I don't know all the In's and outs of bio-diesel production. I know that there is not enough land in the US to provide 100% of our diesel/Jet-A/heating oil needs. But to say that the farmers couldn't contribute a significant percentage, while investigating other means of producing bio-d such as algae, is just plan stupid. After all, automobiles are not the only consumers of petroleum in this country!

Again, the problem focus back to big business, specifically the oil industry. They know exactly what the remaining world reserves are, and are not about to change course just to save this country or the environment. The same can be said for most administrations, not to mention this one.

If there is not a push from the top, much like the challenge to set foot on the moon, we are going to continue to stagnate and/or procrastinate.

#34 12-17-2005, 02:04 AM

BTW the new fangled fluroecent light bulbs physically put out less energy overall but more frequency defined concentrated energy with little to no heat as a nasty byproduct.

Sorta apples to oranges but I see how the comparison is being made

Jim H · #35 12-17-2005, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon314159

BTW the new fangled fluroecent light bulbs physically put out less energy overall but more frequency defined concentrated energy with little to no heat as a nasty byproduct...

All of the output of any light bulb is heat.

15 watts of fluorescent and 15 watts of incandescent are the same heat, but the fluorescent puts out more light per watt.

TheDon · #36 12-17-2005, 10:31 AM

to all biodiesel users new florida law that says any blend of diesel with biodiesel can not be priced more than the current D2 price..

i dont know if thats solid it was posted on my co-ops forum but it takes effect this month

#37 12-17-2005, 11:13 AM

There MIGHT be as much as 40% efficiency delta if you are comparing the most modern CDI to an old carbureted engine, but the delta is nowhere near that big if comparing a modern CDI to a modern EFI gas engine. It is probably no closer than the difference between diesel and gas prices.

Merry Christmas,

Ra_ · #38 12-17-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

to all biodiesel users new florida law that says any blend of diesel with biodiesel can not be priced more than the current D2 price..

i dont know if thats solid it was posted on my co-ops forum but it takes effect this month

That's cool.

I just wish somebody in the Keys sold the stuff.

lietuviai · #39 12-17-2005, 05:29 PM

I have both a gas and a diesel version 123 and they both get the same mileage. The gasser is only a 2.3L 4 banger while the diesel is the old venerable 3.0L turbo 5 cylinder. The gasser has more hp but not as much torque which is the only thing that the diesels have an advantage over a gasser. IMO the gasser from the same era is still more efficient, more hp from a smaller engine. My plans now are to sell off the diesels and look for another nice gasser 123 like a 280E. I saw what looks like a nice one on CL for just under $2K. I've heard that the 2.8 is a great engine.

mikemover · #40 12-17-2005, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biopete

iNeon,
How about that the diesels run off Vegetable oil as an advantage to the general public? There are virtually no green house gasses, home grown domestic fuel stimulates local economies, and Biodiesel iand SVO have huge positive energy gains (see http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ethanol/balance.html ) to negative gains for petroleum fuels and small energy gains for Ethanol, Plus, most spark ignition engines wont off ethanol without reprogramming computers/adjusting timing from what I understand. 20 - 30 mpg off of Veggie oil is better tha 40, 50 or 60
mpg off of gasoline.

Speaking of newer diesels, my 1998 Jetta TDI gets 52mpg on petroldiesel and 46mpg on Biodiesel. Compare that to my mother's "fuel efficient" 2001 Toyota Corrolla that gets a mere 32 mpg on Gasoline and wont run on renewable fuels at all except for 10% Ethanol as all gas cars can do.

So old MBs can still offer benefit to society if you run them off of veggie oil (biodiesel is just veg oil put through a chemical reaction so that is included here) and also remember you are saving resources by not buying a new car and making use of the old car you have. Efficient use of resources is the only way.

Excellent points.

Another thing to consider is the durability of the car that "surrounds" the engine. Obviously there are newer gassers and diesels that are far more efficient than our old MB 5-bangers, old VWs, etc.....

But my 79 300SD has over 300,000 miles on it, and is still going strong, with very little effort by me for the most part.

A newer car, with literally miles of wiring for all of the computerized engine management, plastic everywhere, and all of the electronic and automatic bells and whistles and gadgetry and whiz-bang GPS and XM and OnStar and power-everything and automatic a$$-scratcher and drive-by-wire, blah, blah blah..... The engine may be great, but the rest of that car is going to be a DISASTER by the time its engine reaches 300,000 miles.... IF it reaches 300,000 miles.... Unless the car's owner(s) have spent damn-near the car's original value replacing everything along the way.

Mike

lietuviai · #41 12-17-2005, 06:23 PM

Cars now are going the way of computers. The major things are not going to be worth fixing and end up being thrown away like an old computer. The exception being instead of being thrown away, they usually end up for sale for a mere fraction of their new cost.

#42 12-17-2005, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lietuviai

I have both a gas and a diesel version 123 and they both get the same mileage. The gasser is only a 2.3L 4 banger while the diesel is the old venerable 3.0L turbo 5 cylinder. The gasser has more hp but not as much torque which is the only thing that the diesels have an advantage over a gasser. IMO the gasser from the same era is still more efficient, more hp from a smaller engine. My plans now are to sell off the diesels and look for another nice gasser 123 like a 280E. I saw what looks like a nice one on CL for just under $2K. I've heard that the 2.8 is a great engine.

I think the gasser 123s are pretty cool too, I just like the diesels better. Just depends which toy you want to play with.

CUBANDiesel · #43 12-17-2005, 07:30 PM

Here are a few possible solutions.
1. Crown Vic with navistar diesel. Perhaps one could take entire v8, or just make it an inline 4 turbo. Make an auto optional, with a posi-rear end.

The problems one might encounter would be weight for sure, but the idea of navistar-crown vic sounds cool.

2. or...take ford fusion, that new 4 door, with the smaller navistar diesel turbo, all wheel drive, and a stang 6-speed. That would be one cool ride.
-cuban diesel.

MTUpower · #44 12-17-2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilbrnr

Look, I don't know all the In's and outs of bio-diesel production. I know that there is not enough land in the US to provide 100% of our diesel/Jet-A/heating oil needs. But to say that the farmers couldn't contribute a significant percentage, while investigating other means of producing bio-d such as algae, is just plan stupid. After all, automobiles are not the only consumers of petroleum in this country!

Again, the problem focus back to big business, specifically the oil industry. They know exactly what the remaining world reserves are, and are not about to change course just to save this country or the environment. The same can be said for most administrations, not to mention this one.

If there is not a push from the top, much like the challenge to set foot on the moon, we are going to continue to stagnate and/or procrastinate.

There are many people saying "there just isn't enough land to produce biodiesel in the US..." BioD can be made from wood and other plant materials. We certainly won't know what our capacity is until we try, seriously.

They know exactly what the remaining world reserves are? Saudi Arabia is the world producer AND the world's largest oil company, and they are very secretive on the business of oil. It isn't even known how many well they have in production.

A push from the top? Ever hear of grass roots?

While I like to go with the flow- it's less trouble, I also believe we are capable of more and I never doubt the capacity of the collective human mind to overcome what appears to be insurmountable obstacles.

t walgamuth · #45 12-17-2005, 10:52 PM

yeah, the 280e is a very respected engine. if well cared for it will run as long as a diesel probably. mechanics call it bulletproof. simple durable, torquey and no computers!

it doesnt get really great gas mileage but it is a really nice piece, especially in euro spec.

tom w