Go back and read post #28, as you clearly have ignored it.

The discussion has nothing, whatsoever, to do with whether or not a person should run without a thermostat. I've already stated that I believe that these engines are better run with a thermostat. Do I need to state it again, more clearly?

The discussion has everything to do with whether or not bearings will be damaged, or improper engine oiling will occur if the engine is run continuously at 70°C. You have stated this and I take strong exception to it. You are providing false information to the forum and you know it.

Yes, we'll wait a few days and see if anyone on the forum has had a bearing failure or improper oiling of their engine due to running without a thermostat.

I'll be very curious to see a single post with evidence of this claim.

any more than you are not providing proof of your position.

tom w

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Uhhh....


...right.

To answer the question origionally posted in the 1st post of the thread...you can either drain out some of the coolant beforehand or just let it drop in the catch pan when you change out the stat.

My SD had a broke T stat when I got it and it was probably that way for a long time. I bet a couple of years. I only spent the $20 to replace it because I wanted heat! When it is 0 out a 617 without a T stat just will not throw out any heat unless you drag 3rd gear on the highway.

Running engines cooler will not affect bearing wear. It is common practice in the marine world to swap out t stats for cooler ones or remove them all together.

Running a diesel cool will however kill your fuel mileage and if you use it around town carbon it up.

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I think tom meant to quote this website:
http://www.mynrma.com.au/question_answer_cooling.asp

I'll add in this website for consideration:
http://www.centuryperformance.com/coolingsys.asp#Thermostat

is no problem with a benz, why does the factory bother with an oil thermostat?

inquiring minds want to know.

btw, thanks for the help on the site, brandon. i am kindof a computer numb nuts.

tom w

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Well........it's been 24 hours and nobody has reported any oiling problems or damaged bearings because they ran a 617 without a thermostat.

So, we'll give it a couple of more days.

Surely somebody will report their oiling problems and damaged bearings caused by running without a thermostat.

Not to get into this ridiculous argument but just becuase nobody has reported problems with running no thermostat DOES NOT mean that it won't cause damage...


...it just means that most people have common sense enough to run the engine with the proper equipment in the long term.

If you can admit that the engine takes more damage when operating below normal operating temperature (lets say when you first start it) then you cannot say that the engine is not damaged by running at significantly lower temps by overcooling with the radiator.

For example, I am sure that most of us don't jump in our cars and mash the pedal to the floor as soon as the engine is started (atleast some of us ). We do this becuase the engine is cold, and the parts have not reached their proper operating temperature/expansion size. Now if you want to argue that the cylinder bores do not change size with a 20C drop in coolant temp you are fighting with basic laws of thermodynamics.

If you want another example, explain why semi-tractor trailers use huge closing shutters in front of their radiators to stop overcooling the engine. If "the cooler the better" was the case these trucking companies (which have been doing this for many years) would not be spending the extra money on such complex equipment to get their engines up to temperature quicker.

If you want an example of how it will damage an engine by running cooler, just look outside the realm of the 617 diesel into many other diesel engines. However you cannot say that it doesn't harm this engine simply becuase nobody reports damaged due to it in the long term. There are more factors to the argument...such as the fact that few people are going to pull their thermostat out.

As with motor oil, tempatures cooler beyond the operating temperature is NOT going to produce any improvements and will cause more harm than good.

If the argument continues, I could always pull out every one of my diesel engine theroy books and start quoting...but honestly it shouldn't even have continued on this long....

Without a thermostat, the engine will run 65-70°C. all day long unless it's extremely hot or the vehicle is not moving. In such a case it will run higher than this.

A typical marine diesel will run with a thermostat at 70°C. all day long and all year long and no damage ever occurred to it's engine and no "oiling problems" were ever discovered from running at those temperatures.

So, if you believe that you have some evidence that running 65°C. will damage your bearings, then, by all means, pull out one of you engine theory books and have at it.

I'm going to wait a few more days and see if anybody comes up with a shred of evidence to back this up.

It's going to continue, because the statement is BS, as far as I'm concerned.

Have fun...

Congrats ignoring the rest of my post about commercial trucks

I read it. What's it got to do with damage to bearings? The discussion has nothing to do with the benefits of running at 90°C. on a M/B diesel. The improved fuel economy and reduced emissions are documented. I'm sure the same applies to HD trucks.

You seem to prefer to go off the topic as well.

of off topic is anyone who happens to hold a different opinion to yours.

since when is a marine engine anything like a mb? i read here that they run wo a stat, but i have no idea what the operating conditions are for them. many of them are very large very slow turning engines. some measure their rpms in the hundreds.

you have much excellent knowledge and you are gererous in the sharing of it. in this case you may have made a carless statement but in your zeal to protect your image of never offering any advice that is even slightly wrong you have gotten yourself all out on a limb and all tied up in knots.

threatening to kill a thread because some don't agree with you is wrong. anybody can see that.

a little generousity of spirit would go a long way.

i know it is in there.

tom w

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

On topic is the discussion of whether damaged bearings or oiling problems will occur if one operates with no thermostat. You made the statement. I have stated that you have no supporting evidence whatsoever to back it up. It's hardly a careless statement.

Off topic is the discussion of whether or not a thermostat should be used.

I've already agreed, three times, that the use of a thermostat is preferable in these engines.

Therefore, your incessant arguments regarding whether or not to use a thermostat are off topic.

For the record, I've never threatened to kill this thread, and, via PM, I've already confirmed this fact to you after you were concerned about it. So, you are clearly disingenuous when you make such a statement on the forum, after the fact.

You, also, have some excellent knowledge and are generous to share it. However, you also will offer misleading statements to other members that generally have little basis in fact. I have previously mentioned to you, via PM, that other members will begin to rely heavily on your advice when you reach a post count of 4,000. Therefore, it is important that all posts have a high degree of accuracy to prevent other members from being led astray.

You clearly have ignored my advice and continue with the same behavior exhibited prior to our conversation.

A little bit of forethought, prior to posting, would go a long way. If you don't have the facts or don't have direct experience with the topic, avoid the temptation to use creative license to fill the gaps.

I'll turn it back to you and state that your hubris is clouding your judgment.

but i think it might not be considered a compliment.

i thought of another example.

in the 300sls and sl gullwings of the fifties and sixties they have a dry sump system which holds 18 quarts. i read an article in the last three years or so that stated, this was by a 300sl specialist, that the cars suffer short lived bearings in the limited use that they generally experience today, compared to the frequent competition use that they were designed for. the problem is cold oil. they dont ever get the oil up to the desired range of 175f to 185f because they hold so much oil. this guy stated that he advises his customers to run a lot less oil than they will hold so that it will warm up. (i dont remember exactly how much but it was startling) . he said he has a hard time getting anybody to do it though because it is against their grain to run it at less than full. the low mark is 12 quarts.

now brian i suppose i will have to search all my old magazines so i can quote date and person's name before you will accept this as evidence.

but really, it is one of the most often stated facts, here and in every automotive journal everywhere that the most wear occurs on startup because everything is cold. so i can't imagine how me stating that it is not good for the bearings is so careless??? it seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

and as far as me being careful about what i say, you will note that i often state it when i am offering an uninformed guess. if i state it as a fact i will be pretty sure of it. and you will note that i often admit it if i am wrong.

i am not you and you are not me.

i will continue to try to help my way. you continue to help your way.

your background is engineering. engineers tend to be extrememly specific. architects are generalists. i am capable of being specific but i am by nature a generalist. and i am interested in about anything with two, three, four, six ,eight, or,... oh hell, any number of wheels.

don't you think there is room on this forum for both of us?

tom w

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

............metal friction fatigue...........LOL..........I love it.