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-   -   Who has the most miles on their original timing chain? (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/140605-who-has-most-miles-their-original-timing-chain.html)

phidauex 12-24-2005 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy
The cams will rotate X number of degrees late. Wouldn't that affect the timing? :confused:

Sorry if I wasn't clear, yes, it will definately affect timing, but thats not the real problem with elongated chains. Timing can be adjusted, damaged sprockets on the other hand, must be replaced at much expense and labor.

peace,
sam

Diesel Giant 12-27-2005 03:53 PM

Aint that the truth!

777funk 08-06-2008 11:58 AM

I spoke with a MB dealer tech about a year ago (experienced guy who's about 60 years old or so) whos worked on lots of 61x's and 60x's and said that this is very true with the shark tooth sprockets.

I asked him if he recommended timing chain replacement and he said no, unless the sprockets are replaced. It makes sense.

In my thinking, the best thing we can do is keep driving using the original chain unless it's been routinely changed every 100k or so (saving wear on the sprockets). But I could be wrong.

Seems like I've read a few stories of people putting a new chain in to have it break within under 100k miles.

Too bad there's not an easy solution.


Quote:

Originally Posted by phidauex (Post 1049734)
Quick chain concept filler:

Chains do not 'stretch'. We use the term 'stretch' because they get longer, but its not because the links are actually physically elongating.

A chain is formed of links, flat pieces of metal with holes in them, and pins, which slide through these holes. There is usually a bushing of some sort in between, but not always (the link is often doing double duty as a bushing). The pin is constantly rotating within the hole on the link, and with time, it begins to wear the hole out, and the hole gets larger. But it doesn't just get overall larger, it becomes oval shaped, since the pin is always putting pressure on one part of the link (the driving edge). As this happens, the pins get farther apart, and the chain gets longer.

Now, assuming that this stretch, or elongation, doesn't cause the chain to straight up break (which it can do), then it causes two problems:

It changes your timing, because more chain is now taken up by the tensioner. This is OK, because you can adjust the timing to compensate.

The worst problem, really, is that the increased pitch of the chain (the distance between the centers of the pins) is increasing, which wears out the sprockets.

Imagine a brand new chain and sprocket. As the sprocket turns, each pin falls right in between two teeth. But as the chain ages and elongates, the pins fall farther and farther forward, and begin to eat away at the tooth in front of it. This creates a 'shark tooth' appearance on the teeth. The result is that the sprocket's pitch will increase (the effective distance between teeth) as well.

So far, this is OK. You've got a longer-pitch chain, and a longer pitch sprocket, but they are matched, and you can adjust out the timing difference.

But here is the problem! When you replace the chain, you now have a chain with a shorter pitch than the sprocket, and they are mismatched! Now the chain will wear out very quickly, because the sprocket will force additional wear on it. Additionally, the fresh chain will scrape away the other edge of the teeth, making them smaller and smaller. Soon, one of a few things will happen, you'll break a tooth, or you'll break a chain.

Here is a lesson from the cycling world (and motorcycling world too).

In cycling, we use a 1/2" pitch chain and sprockets. You always replace a chain when the length of 12" worth of links has increased by 1/16" of an inch. The chain isn't in danger of breaking at that level of elongation, but it means that you haven't started destroying your sprockets yet. If you wait until the chain elongates to 1/8" or more over 12", then you'll need to replace your sprockets AND your chain at the same time, which is more difficult, and more expensive. 1/16" of wear over 12 inches corresponds to about .5% elongation. 4 degrees of elongation in a timing chain corresponds to about 1.1% elongation. And finally, let me tell you, I'd rather replace 100 bicycle cassette sprockets, than have to replace one main crank sprocket on a 617.

So anyway, I know that is really long, but its important information to know, when talking about chain/sprocket systems. You replace the chain sooner than you might think, in order to prevent damaging the sprockets. Timing chains are cheap compared to the sprockets they ride on.

peace,
sam


Kpmurphy 08-06-2008 12:06 PM

I have no clue how many miles but my 1970 220D has never had the timing chain changed. I got the car from my dad and he had it for over 22 years. last tiime Pierre and I checked the chain was just fine. oil change every 3000 miles.

vstech 08-06-2008 12:09 PM

no records with my "old smokey" daily driver, but the stuck odo is over 360K... been driving it for 2 years... adjusted the valves last year and have not been able to start the car since... next time I work on it, I will evaluate stretch and many other factors and see if I can save the motor.
I have two ready and waiting to get swapped in if I can't...

compress ignite 08-06-2008 06:55 PM

Original Question
 
Is a "Trick" Darwin exam? Yes?

Hatterasguy 08-06-2008 06:58 PM

According to the FSM MB recomends changing the chain on the 603 if its stretched more than 4 degree's.

86560SEL 08-07-2008 01:26 AM

I have 157K on my newly acquired 190D (2.2L) and not sure if its been changed or not. The PO's widow did not know, but she said the Mercedes tech said it was fine. :confused: How he knows, I have no idea. He had been servicing the car for years, so I guess he knows more about it than most.

I am going to go through the stacks of records and see what all has been done.

stcbenz83 08-07-2008 10:24 AM

265k

jkoebel 08-07-2008 11:50 AM

230K on mine.

I asked my indie who has about 35 years of MB experience, he said he's never seen one break in his career, and has only heard rumors.

Brian Carlton 08-07-2008 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkoebel (Post 1932797)
230K on mine.

I asked my indie who has about 35 years of MB experience, he said he's never seen one break in his career, and has only heard rumors.

They do break.........but, usually the cause is a failed tensioner or rail that jams the chain.

It would be an extreme rarity for the chain to fail with all tensioner and guide components intact.

777funk 08-07-2008 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton (Post 1932810)
They do break.........but, usually the cause is a failed tensioner or rail that jams the chain.

It would be an extreme rarity for the chain to fail with all tensioner and guide components intact.

I still think when a new chain is rolled in, if the sprockets are worn (shark teeth) they should be changed if the engine's life is to be saved. Of course the stuff B.C. mentioned is also important but I don't think just rolling a chain in (plus guides and tentioner) is the solution to chains breaking.

The dealer mechanic I talked with (very good MB diesel guy with lots of experience - 60 years old and worked on lots of 123's) said the same thing the guy on page number 1 of this thread (member with user name phidauex) said about the shark toothed sprockets. And it makes perfect sense... if the sprocket has a different pitch than the new chain, due to wear on it's teeth, then the new chain will be likely to break. When things don't match up, something has to give and it's not going to be the sprockets. It will be the chain.

But who actually changes the sprockets??? Wonder what that'd cost. I'm sure it'd not be a fun/easy job. Probably something that should be done if a rebuild is going to be tackled. It wouldn't make much sense to do a rebuild and have the chain pop less than 100k later.

Hatterasguy 08-07-2008 01:50 PM

The sprocket on the top is easy, the one of the bottom is damn near impossible. I just rolled a new chain on with some new guides and tensoner a few years ago and its fine.


Everything looked clean and good inside mine, no wear on the sprockets that I could see.

At the rate that I drive my car 300k miles is at least 6 years away. Eventualy all the seals are going to be shot and leaking everywhere, so I'll probably rebuild it to get rid of the leaks before anything actualy lets go.

Besides you 617 guys should be more concerned about your oil pump chain than the T chain. A few people on this forum have lost engines because of those.

What it comes down to is that these engines are just getting plain old and tired. How much do you want to tear into a near 300k mile 25 year old engine? Its not worth it.

mbzjag8090 08-07-2008 04:49 PM

355,000 miles...original chain and mechanic says its fine.

a2t 08-07-2008 07:11 PM

276k om603 running fine.


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