Is Antifreeze, like Aspirin, "Hype"?
 

On my Diesels I have used everything from PepBoys to Rotella Antifreeze and sometimes I wonder if its Hype. Somethings on Turbobricks and SAABnet you hear members touting the advantages of a certain brand Antifreeze that really lower engine temperature, but if you really think about it, engine temperature heat release is controlled by thermodynamics and not what the intracacies of the cooling fluid are.
The basic component in Antifreeze, Ethylene Glycol, basically keeps the 40 to 60 percent water component from boiling over. The additives inhibit corrosion. Does the actual coolant composition make a difference? Water is the ideal thermodynamic coolant, I mean you can't use Housepaint or Lacquer Thinner, or Salad Dressing (hey could you?) but no miracle fluid is going to absorband transfer heat better than water ( or am I wrong?) I mean thats why water was always the component in steam engines driven by boilers. If there was something better, why did they still keep using water?
Does it also affect the adiabatic properties of the coolant mix? I thought that was controlled by the radiator / fan size and water pump properties and and engine thermodynamics. I mean if you have a teeny tiny radiator, no wonderbrand of antifreeze is going to help. And as long as you have basic anticorrosive additives? I wonder--then why do radiators and heater cores fail nevertheless and always lok the same inside? After all it all copper piping like the stuff in your house..

Water is indeed a better conductor of heat. However, bunch of other things come into play. Since not all the metals in the cooling system are the same, you get some nasty processes going on. Most of these are trying to eat the metals. Since your aluminum radiator core is the least noble metal in the bunch, it trys to go away first. Thats where the silicates in the antifreeze come in. They protect the aluminum. The iron wants to rust so there are corrision inhibitors in the mix for that too. The plastic neck in the radiator seems to get brittle more quickly if you use green formula antifreeze. Some engines are prone to problems with coolant boiling on the in iron blocks and the resulting cavitation erosion causes pin-holes in the block. Just ask some Ford PowerStroke diesel owners about that. I believe Ford came out with an additive package to fight that.
The PH of the coolant can make things even worse. MB has figured in the PH of the 50% water and the antifreeze and tries to come out neutral after the mix is poured into the engine. Some other brands start out bad and get worse from there. GM's Dexcool (not the same thing as MB coolant) is known as "deathcool" to a lot of Chevy owners. The PH makes a rapid change and the next thing your know, your cooling system is full of black sludge. For those guys, running green seems to be the best way to go.
For all systems, changing coolant every two years seems to be a good plan. Of course we all know what happens if you just run water in the winter. A cracked block in a horrible sight. Folks in really cold climates run a higher percentage of antifreeze to coolant. Of course when you live where it regularly get to -50 F., well, you get other things to worry about too.
Do you have to buy MB coolant? Probably not. You could just buy the generic G-05 stuff. You could use green and if you changed every two years, you might be fine. The more aluminum in the system (like my old 560SEL) the more I want the real-deal MB coolant. For an old 617 with a brass/copper radiator and heater core, green wouldn't hurt my feelings.

This may interest you.....
top
Q. Does Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant contain phosphates?

A. Some European automobile manufacturers request that a phosphate-free antifreeze be used in their vehicles. This issue is related to the extremely high mineral content of the water in Europe. If you were to mix an antifreeze that contained phosphates with the type of water they have in Europe, it may produce deposits that can settle in the cooling system and promote corrosion. However, in North America we do not have this type of water problem. Typical North American coolants have contained phosphates (which is part of the corrosion inhibitor package) for many years. Therefore, the question of phosphates is a non-issue here in North America. Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant is completely safe for use in both foreign and domestic vehicles. For those consumers who would feel more comfortable using a phosphate-free antifreeze, our Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant is phosphate, silicate, and borate free. This coolant uses a special chemistry and technology that extends the life of the corrosion inhibitor package so that it lasts for five years or 150,000 miles (whichever comes first), and is safe for all cars and light trucks (old or new). Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant has been approved by General Motors under their DEX-COOL® specifications and is compatible with other DEX-COOL® approved coolants.

NOTE. Notice this says that this product is COMPATABLE with DEX-COOL. It does not say it IS Dex-Cool.


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Yes
 

YES, in most cases it is "Hype"... :(

it could very well be hype.... but I like to over-maintain my fluids. so G-05 every two years is a go. I use just one gallon in my 300e. So 5 bucks a year isn't too much to ask for to keep the internals clean.

I used to use Red-line water wetter as an additive. I think that's more hype.
they got me for two bottles a couple of years ago, however.

I surrender, it is giving me brain cramps.
 

Hello Lee
:) If we ever get the chance to meet, you must teach me how to say your last name.:)
I was setting here trying to pronounce it, and my wife thought I was cursing. Doh :o :o

Polo zuk, Polu wic zuk, Polo wic zuk, Polowik zook, I surrender, it is giving me brain cramps.:o ;)

polo-chuck

however when it comes out of my mouth it sounds more like pole-la-chuck.

cz is like a ch.

sorry for taking up the board space on this one. But since I plan on being around for awhile i hope you don't mind.

Thank you
 

Thank you Lee:D :D

I will be flushing and filling with G-05 this weekend. I have 2 gallons of G05.

Does anyone know offhand if I HAVE ENOUGH, or what is needed. And in South Florida where I am, what % of distilled H2O I should blend???

Thanks, Austin

50/50 mix
 

50/50 mix.

With 2 gallons I'd say you have more than enough, like twice the amount you'll need.

50/50 is what the book calls for. I, however, chose to run 45/55 as it gave me great cooling in the CA desert. Funny thing, that same ratio works great in sub-zero weather too. Saw -25F my first full winter in Michigan and had no problems at all.

50/50 just ran a little too warm in the heat for me and my 4.5, so I kept the same mix with the 560.

I, for one, don't think it is hype. I tend to use the recommended anti-freeze, mixed with distilled water, and I add a bottle of Water-Wetter. None of these are expensive, especially so compared to the cost of a new radiator or aluminum head. Although M-B is the only one to recommend replacing coolant every two years, I do it on all my cars. When I first tried Water-Wetter, it was in the Austin-Healey. They are notorious for running hot. One bottle in a roughly two-gallon system dropped the running temp about 10 degrees (f).

Having said that, though. It's your car and you can run any damn thing you want in it.

just my $.02,
Wes

when you flush the car out well you pour in what will be 50% of the cooling systems capacity per the manual....then top off with water....because how will you know how much water is trapped in the system before you add......this way you get it dead on without issues.

And yes...it DOES matter that its the right type or not.......due to the aluminum and plastic components in the system......(mostly the aluminum)

I like Evans waterless coolant.

http://www.evanscooling.com/main25.htm

So, it sounds like the likelyhood of long-term corrosion due to incorrect coolant chemistry far outweighs any slight potential 'gains' in the actual cooling ability of one brand over the other.

If I understand, it 'boils down' :rolleyes: to these simple steps:

1. Use an antifreeze to improve the freezing point and boiling point over water.

2. Use corrosion inhibitors to protect the metals in your cooling system.

3. Select an antifreeze with corrosion inhibitors compatible with the metallurgy of your particular radiator and engine block.

4. You won't go far wrong by following the manufacturer's recommendations. (See #3.)

5. Be wary of annecdotal information that sounds too good to be true.

Correct corrosion inhibitors is important.....phosphates will much away at your aluminum parts....Honda is real animate about this....you can do major damage with the wrong antifreeze.

What's your experience with switching over to the Evans product? Is it pretty much drain and fill?
I would imagine you have to be sure the system is completely drained to take advantage of the waterless properties.

i always heard
 

that 5050 mix will cool better than just water.

tom w

evans
 

on my last rebuild of a 91 350sdl i installed the evans coolant,i liked the idea of no water to eleminate electrolis,was told it may run some hotter buy cant see any difference.
have to wait till a/c time and hot july to report complete story.
instructions are to remove all water, had engine completely apart so heater core was cleared with compressed air to eliminate water.
larry perkins lou ky
86 old cars

Best results
 

Best results are achieved by citrus flush, neutralizer flush, air flush until totally dry.
Vacuum burping the system, after filling, and before running the engine, will reduce the issues of cavitation/overheat.

Evens is BAD for sub zero temperatures = turns to jello in the water pump = cavitation.

evans at -10f
 

i did run a crude test on the evans waterless in my freezer, at -10f it showed no signs of jelling, sorta reminded me of 10 wt motor oil,poured good and had a stream down to 1/32 inch then formed drops to empty the container.
larry perkins

Interesting stuff, as I am completely paranoid about cooling issues, I
checked out the site, and I came across this line;

"Also water produces water vapor (steam bubbles) in large volumes, within the engine coolant jackets, which is the fundamental cause of engine “knock” which reduces fuel efficiency and engine power, , , "

Whaaaa????

I've heard many things blamed for engine knock before, but this is the first
time in my life, I've heard that using water based coolant is the FUNDAMENTAL
cause of engine knock.

Are these folks for real?

NOPE
if it is below freezing, 50/50 will shurly cool better... otherwise, no. water is the most efficient readily available liquid to transfer heat. now straight water will not cool very well for long... the water pump will fail, the block will corrode, and the radiator will scale up.
John

I use OE MB coolant in my cars. Can I get away with Autozone special? Probably, heck if you only keep the car for a few years you really don't have to change it.

I use OE because I want to maintain my cars to the highest standard. $20 for a couple gallons of coolant ain't going to break the old wallet.

To anyone who knows MB's they do look at that stuff so come re sale time it does make a difference. Things like OE coolant, OE battery ect show the owner went the extra mile.

On Ford PowerStroke diesels, there was a problem for a number of years that required you to use an additive to your antifreeze. The additive was basically a sacrificial element, designed to prevent pinholes from occurring on the cylinder walls in the water jacket. Seems that water molecules would boil creating a steam pocket, which would then collapse. This collapse would actually eat at the metal, and over time, would allow pinholes to form in the cylinder walls.
Using the Evans coolant eliminates the water, so there is no more 'water detonation' occurring. I also like the fact that my PowerStroke now has an unpressurized water system.

The instructions on the Evans call for you to fully drain the water from the system, and then, use a vented cap to allow the residual water to boil off over time. I like everything about the Evans but the cost....

the new MB's have a sacrificial element in their lifetime coolant equipped vehicles. I thought it was to keep the additives fresh longer.
John

So the green coolent would be just fine??

Maybe someone can answer me this, when i had a water pump leak i bought a new one to swap it out. MY 300SD had green coolent in it, when i removed the water pump i had chalky greenish/white build up on the "fan" sort of speak of the water pump.

After seeing that and reading about MB coolent i bought zerex g-05 and put in half the bottle in with the rest water. But what was that chalky crap that was built up? Could it have built up due to the use of green coolent?

They could just as easily pander to the folks like you and never maintain the car at all-- until it's time to sell.

This is double-edged. I would consider this a very minor thing when purchasing an automobile. Shlomo had(and has) green coolant in his radiator when he followed me home. I don't care what color it is, so long as its fresh and not rusty.

About the green buildup on the impellor blades of the waterpump-- It could just as easily be red or orange from the dye in every other type of anti-freeze. It's just dye adhering to what I'll call iron deposits(from the water part of the mix)

Aspirin is NOT hype. It saved my grandpa's life during a heart attack.

The SCA that is required in Ford PowerStrokes has to be at a certain level. Too low, and it will not perform and too high results in deposits in all the wrong places. It is certainly not the best alternative, but apparently the best at the time.

I think the element that you are talking about is more for the electrolysis problem and not the deterioration of the cylinder liner.

The title refers to the history of asprin
 

Blast...
The need to explain this, makes me feel old...

Since it was introduced under the trademark Aspirin® in the year 1899, acetylsalicylic acid has been advertised as a cure for everything.

The US government stopped this, can't recall when.

Here are a couple of links for education.

Aspirin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin

Aspirin
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=Aspirin&btnG=Google+Search

Theses radiators always break at the upper hose neck do to some corrosive property in most coolants reacting with the crappy plastic radiator tops. It's one of the reall weak points of these cars. Thy're only supposed to be exposed to MB coolant. You should check that every once in a while to make shure it's solid. When that happens it can destory your engine quick. Mine just came right off when I checked it. I still wonder how it did't rupture while driving. I don't even know where to buy MB coolant, they don't sell it in any of the stores. I've got an aftermarket radiator with a life-time warantee in that car now.

First of all, I only use manufacturer recommended parts and supplies in my cars. If I was as smart as the engineers that designed the finest cars in the world (MB) than I would be designing instead of working on cars. Anything may work and work well but I am not willing to take that chance. I drive my cars until the wheels fall off.
The other thing, I don't care what anyone says, all asprin is not the same. Bayre is different from generic. There are so many things that go into MAKING drugs that are not the same. The actual chemicals used may be the same but the manufacturing procedures are different. Thats what my doctor says, and I believe him. I must as I put my life in his hands and I have made it to my 60's and still in good health.
So, use manufacturer recommended products in your car and keep Bayer asprin handy.

MB 325.0 Anticorrosion/antifreeze agents

MB 325.0 - Anticorrosion/antifreeze agents (Specification 325.0) - Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids

Well for my two cents stay away from green and use the zerex go-5 stuff if you have a choice. Should not be hard to source. I am not certain of the chemical action. But with some cars using green I found a whitish buildup of some mass on the enterance of the water tubes passages in radiators.

Now to be fair I had no ideal of when that anti freeze had been changed before or ever. I just found that I ran across it enough times and yet never heard anything discussed about it anywhere at the time.

This may be the stuff a previous poster described as found in their water pump. My thoughts at the time is it seemed to built up in areas of temperature change instead of all over. White in color and it has some mass.

Here's the story on Bayer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer

night before last, I was running a 103.4 degree temperature, took two bayer aspirin. Within the hour my temperature fell below 100. Hype? you tell me......

Recycled for new members
 

Education

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Generally speaking, the scale on parts in the cooling system are deposits from tap water...

Distilled water leaves no scale.

It's probably more important to use diesel grade antifreeze, than the brand of diesel antifreeze used. In Canada, diesel engine antifreeze is red and gasoline engine antifreeze is green. In our cold climate I run about 2/3rds antifreeze for maximum freeze protection.
http://hellafunctional.com/wp-conten...1/freezept.gif

Cheap green coolant works just fine.

EDUCATION

In house plumbing where over years and thousands and thousands of gallons water leaving deposits behind I can see this being true. In an car engine with 1 to 2 gallons of tap water leaving that much deposit? Don't think so. If you put 2 gallons of tap water in a open glass jar and let it evaporate, I doubt you will see any deposits.

People often blame brittle radiator tanks and hose nipples on the coolant blend, but I'm more inclined to think the heat does them in rather than antifreeze A or B. Considering how dashboard skins dry out and crack if they see too much hot sun, I wouldn't expect any less from plastic radiator parts that are exposed to 200-degree temperatures in the course of daily operation.

Loving my cheap $9.00 green coolant.

Is it 50/50 premixed? I've not seen true "green" coolant under 11.00 in full strength... 11.00 full strength is only 6.50/gallon mixed with distiller water from the grocery store...

The dashboard is exposed to uv light from the sun, and radiant heat in excess of 300 degrees... The mild temps of the engine are nothing in comparison...

I think the type of water (distilled vs. tap) makes more difference in terms of scale build up and deposits over the actual coolant. If a career in aviation maintenance has taught me one thing it's to follow the book! If M-B calls for their coolant, then pony up and buy it!