Cast Iron OM 603 Cylinder heads.... - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

87tdwagen · #1 02-09-2006, 12:25 AM

Interested???

I have access to a high quality SEMA automotive casting/machining facility that I have worked with in the past on special projects that had good potential in the aftermarket support area.

In prep for the eventuality that my #14 head may fail and other have experienced this travesty, I would like to get your impression of the market demand for an alternative approach.

Here are my assumptions:
Could be cheaper to produce after initial ramp-up.

Better Price-point: I assume $1500 bare at first with a goal of $1000 or so after the first run of 500 units. Compared to current prices for the #22 head costing around $2000 or more

Greater longevity, 603 owners unite! now the 617 has NOTHING over us

No more cracked heads.

Weight differential is not enough to be a real performance drawback on these cars with what they already weigh, what's an extra 50-60lbs. ?

Any thoughts? comments? Interest?

dieseldiehard · #2 02-09-2006, 12:36 AM

Great idea, I could have used an iron head for my 603 job last year. BUT the only agreement I can make is that weight should not be a significant issue.
Who will bankroll this? You need a steel mill to forge the head don't you?
Set up fees for that plus the presumed computer program to cut the thing are going to be very costly.
I think the market for these heads is too small to support the concept. Unless you had credibility and have produced good proven heads before and could convince an outfit like WorldPac to stock them. Otherwise I doubt you could even reach break even. Its all in the numbers, as part of a market study you need to know the number sold in the world and whether the aluminum heads could drop in price to effectively kill your market (very possible, I think someone is making a few bucks on these at $2K per!) but I doubt that Daimer Chrysler is interested in the slightest in investing in iron heads, probablky have made an investment in the casting molds for the aluminum ones, they probably own them and allow a metal casting co to use them.

Hit Man X · #3 02-09-2006, 12:49 AM

I'll stick with my 17 or 18 I opt to install. I've seen new ones down around $1600 if you shop around... bare of course.

If you can get cost down to $1000 for a bare cast, I bet we'd see more of them on the roads still versus being parts cars...

Keep in mind the cost of having to keep those heads in stock if you can't flip them also.

87tdwagen · #4 02-09-2006, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieseldiehard

Great idea, I could have used an iron head for my 603 job last year. BUT the only agreement I can make is that weight should not be a significant issue.
Who will bankroll this? You need a steel mill to forge the head don't you?
Set up fees for that plus the presumed computer program to cut the thing are going to be very costly.
I think the market for these heads is too small to support the concept. Unless you had credibility and have produced good proven heads before and could convince an outfit like WorldPac to stock them. Otherwise I doubt you could even reach break even. Its all in the numbers, as part of a market study you need to know the number sold in the world and whether the aluminum heads could drop in price to effectively kill your market (very possible, I think someone is making a few bucks on these at $2K per!) but I doubt that Daimer Chrysler is interested in the slightest in investing in iron heads, probablky have made an investment in the casting molds for the aluminum ones, they probably own them and allow a metal casting co to use them.

I agree that the initial set-up would be by far the greatest cost, but depending on molding and casting methods used, a suitable iron alloy could be rough cast from an OE head. A 3-D CNC could replicate the cutting needed and the design only needs to be marginally changed to allow aftermarket use w/o violating MB design.

The greatest issue is as you mention, in the numbers. The market is small but if demand is high enough to support around 2-3 suppliers on a global scale this may be a good segway into other future offerings, once the credebility is there. For now being first to market may be the edge. Question is: How much for design and Are ther enough people out there to justify the investment?

I guess it would boil down to a combination of material and cost factors.
A. Is the material desireability high enough to warrant a loyal and large following. Would enough people see value in an iron over aluminum head?

B. Cost, always an issue, but as you mentioned so long as the price point is either below or equal to current choice you should have an edge, so long as people still value point A.

In the end if you had the option between the two types of heads what would be your decision criteria? What is more important to you? There will be tradeoffs with each design, but if you could assume equal design and build quality, which would you choose and why?

Thanks,
Bill

Hatterasguy · #5 02-09-2006, 10:46 AM

Why? The later 18 heads don't crack and seem to run about $1k.

Nothing wrong with the 14 heads either, I bet mine lasts until the engine needs rebuilding.

lietuviai · #6 02-09-2006, 03:24 PM

I wonder if the engines would be noisier with the iron head?

t walgamuth · #7 02-09-2006, 11:10 PM

maybe quieter.

tom w

Diesel Giant · #8 02-09-2006, 11:33 PM

How would you forge the head??

t walgamuth · #9 02-10-2006, 04:26 AM

forging would work. i think it would have to be cast. the shapes are too complicated for a forging. i have never heard of a forged head of any kind. it might be possible if the engine were air cooled though.

tom w

ConnClark · #10 02-10-2006, 12:15 PM

I don't have a 603... but if your going to the trouble to make a new head look for ways to try and improve the design.

87tdwagen · #11 02-10-2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConnClark

I don't have a 603... but if your going to the trouble to make a new head look for ways to try and improve the design.

I agree, in addition to cast iron being a better material for long term reliability and abuse, say in a high boost mode, performance oriented, the design should capitalize on performance advancements as well, larger intake/exhaust ports valves etc. All within reason and design cost/time.

If a higher performance cast iron head were available at a comparable price to OE would there be an interest???

t walgamuth · #12 02-10-2006, 05:31 PM

interested i fi needed a head for my 603. but it seems fine so far.

tom w

R Leo · #13 02-10-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 87tdwagen

I agree, in addition to cast iron being a better material for long term reliability and abuse, say in a high boost mode, performance oriented, the design should capitalize on performance advancements as well, larger intake/exhaust ports valves etc. All within reason and design cost/time.

If a higher performance cast iron head were available at a comparable price to OE would there be an interest???

While laudable, an improved performance 603 head would not be a project for the faint of heart or, pocket book. Attempting to design and produce a performance head without the benefit of a flow bench and some high caliber analytical equipment is folly.

ConnClark · #14 02-10-2006, 05:47 PM

A flow bench isn't really needed. You just need a manometer and an engine.

Say you want to measure the flow of the exhaust. What you do is bolt the head on the block minus the intake valve. Then you crank the engine so that it is in the exhaust stroke on the test cylinder. You then just blow air through the inlet at a known rate and measure the pressure drop.

R Leo · #15 02-10-2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConnClark

A flow bench isn't really needed. You just need a manometer and an engine.

Say you want to measure the flow of the exhaust. What you do is bolt the head on the block minus the intake valve. Then you crank the engine so that it is in the exhaust stroke on the test cylinder. You then just blow air through the inlet at a known rate and measure the pressure drop.

Interesting.

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