Hope you fellows are still persevering.

I think I will basically copy the last posted pump adjuster design for my Mercedes.

My old Volkswagen seems to be getting 47.99 miles per American gallon 3.78 liters?
Allow that it is a warmer time of the year but not hot yet, and that I have been doing primarily 90 percent or more highway driving, at about 65-70 miles per hour.

This I think is a little better mileage than any I ever had before with older Volkswagen 1.6 liter diesels other than the 1.9 tdi's.

The top fuel mileage I ever recorded on a tdi was 52.45 miles per American gallon.
Will keep a tally on the amount of fuel purchased versus total miles until I reach 5000 miles.
Then double check my figures.
One thing for sure is that I am not complaining even if the longer haul comparison by calculation drops it a little.

The more miles accumulated versus total fuel purchased has got to increase the accuracy of the results.
The above is based on twenty five hundred miles. .
Now I cannot wait to do the 240d standard transmission model with the 22-25 mpg performance on the highway.

Also wonder how much latent untapped power is hiding there if any.
We will see.
My other 240d is somewhat faster, and does get better mpg, but on the other hand it has an almost new engine.

The slower one seems to have a pretty sound engine as well just not new.
In fact it may be the original with 200k.
Thats if one believes the majority of odometers on these cars are really the original miles as well as in the tooth fairy I suppose.

.

although things have been a bit quiet on this THREAD, I'm sure others are following with interest. Since I have a 240D, I'll be following for sure. "yellit" is working hard to finish his tool that will attach to his 300D's IP and allow him to more readily change the IP's timing by use of a long pipe handle while he monitor's the mv output of his glow plugs!

I just won an Ebay auction for a used Kent-Moore J 33300-A Diesel Timing Meter but it's going to take a couple of weeks for me to actually receive it and check it out. It has a 1/4" clamp-on transducer so if we cannot figure figure out a way to make it work for us we are then faced with purchasing a 6mm transducer... and Kent-More appears to only market their products direct so I'm aprehensive about what the $ might be!

Question for READERS - What do you think might be a good way to "jury-rig" this 1/4" [ 6.35mm ] clamp to work on our ~6mm MBZ fuel lines. I was thinking of wrapping the fuel line with multiple wraps of thin aluminum foil... what do you think?

Barry - I would like to see a recap summary of the steps you think should be followed leading up to adjusting the IP-to-Engine timing on our MBZ(s).

Sam

Sam, a recap is a pretty good ideal.

To do this procedure I would read each glow plugs output voltage individually.
Just to establish no existing major difference exists from one cylinder to another prior to reading them in parallel for the actual timing adjustment.

Otherwise you have a negative component in your overall average that of course pulls the average voltage off.

Really of no significance particularly for the test unless that lower or higher voltage is being created by a pump element that is out of time.
If not correctable just eliminate that plug from the parallel string for the test but much better to find the cause of the off voltage.

I myself would want to know why they are not indicating similar voltages before proceeding and rectify the problem.

Otherwise you are setting the timing on an engine that has underlying problems perhaps.
May be something as simple as the valves need adjusting or an off value glow plug or perhaps even a poor injector for example.

Then after correcting the problem it is just a case of reading the average output voltage on the harness and setting the pump to the highest output voltage obtainable.

If your meter wants to hunt just add the capacitor and resistor to stabilize the last digit.
Some people report their meters hunt while others seem not to have the problem.
I suspect most will though, and you really want a stable reading to adjust by.
The other thing is to add two marks on the pump flange and pump mount area before you start both for comparison and to give you the starting point to get back to if desired.

Would also give you some reference if say you drip timed the pump for comparison as well.
Pretty simple and thats what we want long term anyways to eliminate possible foul ups.

I again think this is getting pretty close to a valid procedure at this point both from the Volkswagen results and common sense.

As people start doing this procedure the posted results will drive it forward I believe at an enormous clip.

If your mileage and power are greater after the adjustment that verifies the engine likes your new timing.

Do not expect results to necessarily tally exactly with any other system that uses the position of number one injectors firing point and the crank degrees as they do not allow for fuel quality, or many other variable factors.

I suspect on the older engines you will land up a degree or so advanced beyond the other systems perhaps even a little more.

Still a comparison with another system would be nice for the first few done by this method.
You are tuning for the hottest combustion point of the engine instead.
The maximum efficient fuel usage with the most power potential developed without getting into pre-ignition.

If the peak voltage obtained seems to have any width or tendency to stay the same over a few degrees of pump movement I would stay at the retarded side of the peak while still being in it.

I suspect for absolute perfection we will need meters that have a resolution of a hundredth of a Milli volt rather than the common meters tenth of a Milli volt but no proof of that requirement yet and may be overkill even if it might eventually appear useful.

I think that about covers it.

.

Barry - in an effort to move things along...
let me be so presumptuous as to extract and/or paraphrase from what you have written and make up a rough draft of what I shall call our initial check-list for using your mv IP-to-Engine timing methodology… or to coin a new buz term let’s call it “ Barry’s mvIP2EtM ” :

=========================================

(1) Timing Marks - Before moving the IP and thus its timing, ALWAYS place a mark on the IP flange in line with a second adjacent mark on the IP pump mount. These could prove essential if you end up with a timing problem and need to return to the original timing.
(2) Initial Glow Plug [ GP ] mv Readings* – After starting and warming up the engine, disconnect the line connector on the harness that runs from the GP relay to the GPs and sensors on the engine… this using a digital volt-ohm meter [ VOM ] make and record the initial readings of the small voltages [ 6-15 mv ] generated by the GPs working as thermocouples.
(3) ___________ [ space reserved…for 1 or more steps that I think will be needed in here! ]
(4) Parallel Connection of GPs– Electrically connect in parallel all GPs to be used in timing procedure. An easy way for this is to use “banana plug” connectors inserted into the IP relay line connector. [ I’m prepared to provide a hybrid photo/graphic illustrating this ]
(5) __________ [ space reserved for 1 or more steps… ]
*FootNote – some VOM’s will indicate reasonably stable readings, but others will fluctuate wildly and if this occurs, you can stabilize the readings using a simple R-C circuit connected to the VOM’s leads. ………. [ add description of resistor and capacitor values and how to put together this simple circuit… I’ll be glad to help write this up once I have an explanation to work from ! ]

=========================================

OK, now this fall flat if the more avid readers of this THREAD do not jump in and comment on what I'm trying to do to help out here. I'll save the rough draft text above along with the special formatting that generates this POST... this so I can easily incorporate your input and re-send it in a future POST. So don't be apathetic out there, speak up!
Sam

Thanks Sam you have been a tremendous support.

It's about time to get some of these done if possible.
We need the feedback.
Good or bad.

Almost everybody wants the maximum power and miles per gallon out of these engines consistent with them running properly.

This is just an attempt to help get it.
We have no other way to allow for wear in our old engines and accessories when timing them otherwise.

The old timing methods might even be obsolete I suspect but we will not know that without feedback.
I will be doing one of my 240ds soon but not driving it enough to verify the results for awhile.

But I will do the well up test before doing the Milli volt test and mark the pump for reference.
Plus post the results of course.
I originally thought it would take time for the system to gel.
Perhaps as much as a year.
At least I might be right about that it seems.

Try to remember that certain manufactures use this system to time their diesel engines to pumps at the factory as far as I am aware.
Even without the pump holding jig one can loosen and move the pump a very little toward the engine and re-tighten it then restart the engine and see if the voltage is higher once it re-stabilizes again.

If so turn off the engine and move it a little more and recheck it until the maximum voltage value has been reached.
We are talking about 1/32 inch movements or less at a time from your marks in most cases.
Then try the car for a few days.
At worst you will reset to the marks you made at the start but from my experience so far with old diesel Volkswagens thats the last thing you would ever consider doing.

There might be exceptions and if so we need to find out.
I suspect the majority of the six miles per gallon spread on 240ds that I am aware of reported might be right there.

Some owners report 30+ mpg on the highway with the majority reporting about 25 mpg.
Also the different individual power spreads reported with that engine have also always disturbed me and originally got me thinking about all of this.

We as owners really cannot afford to ignore this if it is valid.
The power you are perhaps missing on your 240ds might even be considered a safety issue.
I know for certain that I did not have the fuel pedal as far down for the same speed or power as before the re-timing on the Volkswagens.

Plus the engines do not seem to be working or straining as hard at cruise speeds.
They sound and feel much happier to use a common expression.
That has got to be less fuel for the same speed/distance.

Also starts seem a little easier as fuel is then injected closer to the peak dynamic compression point rather than later in most cases when compression is starting to drop off.
This insures a hotter ignition point than you had before as well.
It really does appear to be all upside at this point.

.

me thinks you might be " Preaching to the Choir " [so to speak] !

Some Clarification needed please – Your description of making small incremental changes to the IP-2-E timing sounds almost like a “ static adjustment ” method. " Yellit ” [ aka Kevin ] and I share [I think] the premise that with the right adjusting tool [ like the one Kevin is building as we chat here ]... one with a long and strong enough lever, we think we should be able to make the mv IP-2-E timing adjustment “ dynamically ” with the engine running.

Have we gone astray O’ Greasy Leader!?

Sam

Sorry no preaching intended.

I guess the total apparent success on the Volkswagens has fired my own enthusiasm up too much.
I will try to dampen it.

Plus when the overall idea was initially considered it was thought there would be insurmountable problems by some even reading the glow plugs, or finding a meaning from them.
I was and still am looking for skeletons in the closet.
No you have not gone astray either.

I just mentioned the combination static/dynamic method because it is possible but harder and has some pitfalls. .
I also thought some people may never build the adjustable jig for example.

The holding and adjustment jig is far superior.
That ideal of yours was and is excellent.
I have noticed that the final adjustment is very small on the Volkswagens for example and a similar tool for them would help a lot.

The Volkswagens were done totally dynamically with the engines running as well.
It would have been a much harder time to do them with a combination dynamic/static method and would not have ended up as accurate, only better to some extent.

Same principal for Mercedes of course.
I personally do not want to do it by the static method of actual pump adjustment either as the wait to establish if the voltage has gone higher or lower alone mind the things that could occur to add inaccuracy to the procedure are many..

Mind the trial and error to find the ideal spot.
It might make the procedure long and tedious as well.
If you could actually drive the Volkswagens before and after the change you would like myself not only be very happy but want to share it.
It seems to work really well, in fact far beyond expectations as I initially felt it was just a substitute for factory timing and other approaches at best.

At this time I believe I was wrong.
It seems superior unless I am missing something, (those skeletons again).

The total dynamic approach is the only one that is really proper and insures accuracy with this method in my opinion.
There are still plenty of unknowns as it is.
I do not see myself as the leader but just another participant in this this thing.
Many others will make contributions and already have to help it along.

.

Got called out on job tonight so have not finished my glow plug upgrade to time my 300...

Just a note that all 5 of my brand new glow plugs read very very close in MV on a bench test....

Hooked the dvms to them and:
* Heated the tips with a propane lighter.
* Got to about 2.5 MV each one.
* Then let cool and hit them with light freeze spray and was able to take the readings toward opposite direction.
* Then back to zero at room temp....

so close to the actual timing and just got paged again.
May try tonight if I get back in time.
Rerouted new fuel lines to accommodate timing plate.
Kevin

.

or meeting in private as it were “OFF FORUM” talking about different ways we might come up with what you call the " adjustable jig ". And you are right the first one that Kevin is close to finishing is not likely to be duplicated by any but the most ardent fans of this concept… but I’m still racking my brain trying to come up with a simpler way and the experience Kevin will gain and share with us might just give us information that will allow a simpler way to be more obvious.

The one idea I’m toying with right now is the use of a “strap pipe wrench” with the strap threaded through the center of the IP’s fuel lines, tightened, and thus provide us an “ assist ” tool to help torque the IP against the heavy spring effect we anticipate from these fuel lines. Maybe the necessary torque will not be that great and we will be able to move the IP easily the few degrees that should be necessary under most circumstances. If heavy torque is needed this cheap supplemental tool might just be enough to allow us to design the " adjustable jig " feature more easily as it would not have to be designed to draw in or push a heavy load... mostly just serve tighten down and termorarily " hold-fast " the IP timing setting that gives us the peak mv reading and this we can find " jogging " back and forth with our heavy lever tool mounted on the nose of the IP and if necessary a supplemental torque tool such as my strap wrench idea.

Barry... help us out here:
Q – Do you anticipate most comonly having to torque the top of the IP toward or away from the engine… I think I remember that it is “ toward the engine ” to advance the timing or do I have it ass backwards ?

Sam

First Sam the adjuster jig will be required.

The total change movement will almost always be towards the engine (advance).

The total movement I anticipate will be no more than 1/8 inch.
Perhaps less at the applied marks on an average running engine.

As for the hard lines perhaps that small a total movement will not pose a problem.

For the adjuster I would like to see a fine threaded rod between the pump bracket and the valve cover clamp.

As very, very little movement has large voltage consequences.
This threaded rod would of course allow fine control of the adjustment.

Also I was not wild about the clamping to the valve pan cover as the torque and vibration load with the engine is an unknown factor in my mind and might be substantial.

Plus the stability of that pan might also effect the adjustment stability to some extent.

The saving grace may be the primary direction of torque is always the same.
The jig I knew was a tricky proposition as soon as I examined the engine.

This did not appear to be a walk in the park kind of thing for the adjuster design and the pan was logical under the circumstances.
Still might be good enough.

The hard lines will help resist the torque to some extent of course.
Yes it is great Kevin is so close to a trial.
He will go down in history as the first attempt on Mercedes with this method I believe.
Or at least that I am aware of.
My concerns, not major, may be unwarranted at this time.
We will soon know.

Glad to hear that you and Kevin have been collaborating.
Two minds are better than one for starters.
Like yourself I can only wait to see what his results are and any improvements indicated.
Or problems posed as well as they are a good possibility at this stage. .

Just hope it works as well for him as I suspect it can.
He sees the total application picture to some extent as well.
We as a group will work through this.

There is almost instant gratification if you can get the timing forward to the peak.
An old expression is that I am just crossing my fingers and hope any or all questions he might pose are answerable.
If he turns out to be a raving enthusiast who knows what we will do.

So much still ahead.

Sam, I own and can use things like my standard-modern 13" metal cutting lathe, plus many other metal working tools that many others do not posses.
Even with them and my limited knowledge I do understand how difficult that jig is to make simple and effective.

What does get my attention is that the factory tool designer was forced to attach to the head bolts.

From experience I have never had difficulty using one head bolt on an engine.
But two side by side?
Someone out there will have a brainwave at some point.
Perhaps what has already been posted will prove adequate.

I may be just ultraconservative.
As for the requirement to use the supplementary hard line wrench.
Using the factory adjustment tool there is no indication that a hard line manipulation tool was required to be used with it.

One eighth inch at the marks is probably about 3/8 inch at the base of the lines or less.
That I hope should be manageable.

.

OK guys, first I wish to report that I just sent off my Money Order for a Kent-Moore [K-M] J-33300-A Diesel Timing Meter [ basic unit ] plus a ¼” [6.35mm] clamp-one “Line Transducer” I successfully bid for on Ebay. So cross your fingers that the seller comes through.

K-M appears to sell such products only direct and they previously quoted me this “Basic Unit” only [ J-33300-A] for ~$850.00. I'll tell you later what this ends up costing me and more importantly how the instrument works out for us.

There are a number of accessories available and you MUST have one or more of these alternative accessories for the meter to work at all. It can be used on old and as well as newer diesels using combinations of a “Luminosity Probe” placed in the engine's glow plug hole, a “Magnetic Crankshaft Probe”, 3different sizes of “Transducers” that clamp-onto the fuel lines of the older cars like ours [ sozes = ¼”, 5mm, and 6mm ], and finally their own “ Inductive Timing Light ” for which I think you can substitute your own. I'm attaching a FAX "TIFF" file that summarizes this meter and the accessories and you should be able to easily view/print it for yourself. I hope it's viewable for you!

So assuming the seller comes through with the shipment, I will check it out and report back to you on its performance in working on our vintage MBZs.

Remember now, this is the same make of meter Brian Carlton and his friend used to compare IP timing setings using the official MBZ static tool ["RIV"?] on the newer in-line Bosch IPs. The one I should receive is a newer model ["A"] so I will report back to this THREAD or possibly start a separate THREAD. Why?... well:

(1) I’m sure there are others in our group who might like to know more about this meter that offers a possibly way to perform “Dynamic” checking and setting of the primary IP-to-Engine timing, and

(2) I might be given an opportunity to acquire another such Basic unit and Transducer sensor.

My best estimate is that the “Basic Unit” and one “Transducer” are probably valued at ~$1,000 replacement value NEW from K-M !

New Subject; Back to our fine tuning the " Primary IP Timing ”
Kevin [“ yellit ”] reported something in an earlier POST that did not register with me at the time… but now I see great promise in what he was writing about! I think what he sees potential for is a way to firmly mount an “adjustable jig” by using 2 or more of the special head bolts on the these 616/617 engines… don’t worrynow, he was not talking about removing and reseating these bolts for that would be an inventation to blow a gasket… but I do think he merely meant we might be able to come up with a way to fabricate a “ jig ” that would merely be inserted into the holes in the tops of these bolts… and my add-on idea is to also see if such such a “ jig ” can be held in place vertically using 1 or more of the valve cover bolts. The load from the “ jig ” would almost entirely be born by the heavy head bolts, not the valve cover bolt. Can anyone envision what I’m saying in proxy for Kevin? I’ll try to work tonight on a hybrid photo/sketch to illustrate what I think Kevin & I are [I know I am] talking about ! Stay tuned !
Regards,
Sam

Ferret makes a nice unit as well. Not too pricey.

http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=FER765-99

http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=FERM764-96

__________________
The Golden Rule

1984 300SD (bought new, sold it in 1988, bought it back 13 yrs. later)

jbaj007 and others,
Can you believe it, we purchased these same two Ferret pieces from this same retailer [ black box electronics and clamp-on piezo sensor ] and just could not get them to work reliably... even after the factory replaced the piezo-electric clamp-on sensor and their techrep spent considerably time with us on the telephone. We tried it on 4 different vintage MBZs numerous times and it only worked once on one car and then it wouldn't repeat on that car! We finally asked for and received a return authorization. Our best guess is that the Ferret sensor design just canNOT work on the heavier steel walls of the fuel lines used in these vintage MBZs. Others have successfully used the Ferret equipment on newer/different vehicles.

We were most dissappointed... so we are off now to see if we can work with the Kent-Moore meters [ around since the 1980(s)] that Brian and his Friend used.

Sam

Sam, congratulations on rounding up that meter and sensor. Is the sensor piezo electric?The other ideal of yours and Kevins for an alternate mount sounds very interesting as well.

Got the glow plug uprade finished...now 300D starts before I can turn loose of the switch....had not been cranked in about 6 months...once took forever and a set of heavy jumpers from my 240D to crank....unbelievable now instant start on old biodiesel....now the news...with all IP hold down nuts loose still could not move IP very much...about 1/16"....but the mv tracked up as I moved that little bit ..almost same values as the Barry VW...I ran out of manhood grunt force and I was worried about the delivery valves in the plate slot to push much harder...I think we may need to look at some kind of injector line bender/relaxer as it looks like those are what is doing most of the holding...I think Sams idea about a chain device through the delivery valve area is what is needed for leverage.....I could have driven around with all the IP nuts off and I do not think it would have moved...those lines are TOUGH.....Will try the 240 tomorrow and see if it is easier....I did notice the 300D now has extra (pep or snap) off idle...this car is a dog..my definite project car..just drove around parking lot ( no insurance yet...until I finish some basic stuff on it...not driving it while under repair).....I am sure the timing chain is about gone but there was a difference in throttle response with the new setting...Barry described exactly the different feelings about the increase....went from 11.3 mv to 11.9-12.0 mv all cylinders very close with the five meters on them...used all the meters to read the parallel group during my minor adjustment...all up-tracked the same....advance IP voltage up...retard IP voltage down...will do the 240D tomorrow after I get back from Natchez Ms. service call....fun to watch the mv count down after engine off......kevin