Yeah... in my opinion these cars are so robust you can probably run 20-50k miles on straight veggie without any ill effects. Would I recommend it as an engineer? Definately not.

I run a dual tank setup and I live in one of the hottest climates in the US. I still start on diesel to bring the combustion chamber temperatures up before injecting the veggie oil. My veggie oil temp gauge has read 130 degrees F before even starting the car so I don't give it much warm up time in the summer (it's still a prototype system, haven't been able to record data in the winter yet). The oil is almost hot enough from the get-go, but the metal inside the engine is also at 130 degrees which is far too cool for proper combustion IMO.

Hi,

I sat down and ran the numbers a couple of years ago for the thermal diffusivity of the oil at the injector tip. I came up with a relaxation time of 20mS meaning that the small volume of oil in the injector would reach the temperature of the injector (and head) in about 20 mS. (this is a big approximation based on the diameter of the injector orifice, conductivity of the oil, temperature of the engine and the cold oil). Further I ran the numbers for the injection timing and found that the oil spends about that much time in there between squirts -- roughly speaking since it depends on rpm. This was all ball park but what I concluded is that a lot of heating happens at the injector as suggested in this thread.

Without fuel line heating I measured the oil ejected from the injector from the vacuum drain lines to be 120F shortly after starting. If I recall right, most people want 150F where the viscosity of the oil is about that of diesel. This 120F was a few minutes after startup so the temp probably could go higher since I measured my head temp at 175F. I must say that the oil ejected from the vacuum line at the injector doesn't exactly pass through the tiny orifice at the end of the injector so the injection temp can be higher.

I went on to make an inline fuel heater with glow plug and noticed a dramatic power increase with the electrical heating. Unfortunately before I could get a reading on the fuel temp of the overflow at the injector the glow plug malfunctioned and started a fuel fire that torched the car. This was a VW Rabbit IDI but it had a similar injector and head design to the MBZ.

So is hot injection that important? Greasel used to show photos of their pvc tubing on their website that probably couldn't handle 150F oil. So even though they said they had hot injection, they may have relied mostly on the injectors. It is pretty hard to get that kind of injection temp using heating water...you need a heavy duty system like Frybrid to do this.

Will you ruin the engine? There is a great German site that I've lost the link for that is about burning Rapeseed oil in a W124 diesel wagon with no heating. He has borescope images showing his engine being clean after tens of thousands of miles. Sorry lost the link! But he uses virgin oil.

So, you have a big advantage using virgin oil. I use a heated filter and a heated fuel line now on my 240D mainly because the fuel filters clog up if I don't use a combination of heated fuel and regular backflushing with diesel. This is because I have some small amounts of animal fat in my oil after filtering. I used Costco oil on my Rabbit and it was waaaaayyyyy easier. If you don't have to deal with fats, particulates and water you can get away with a very simple system, especially in the Bay Area (I'm in San Jose).

But you may be right, heating maybe overrated. The German site may be indicative. My car runs better with heating, but that is because my oil isn't all that "neat".

Regardless, this probably applies to MBZs only. I have heard VW TDIs complain a lot if you burn cold oil. All engines aren't created equal.

In closing, I think heating is a good thing. Might as well do it since it really can be easy - my heater is a copper line wrapped around my header and a hot water coil around my FF760 filter. My system has evolved into this after greasing a few years and having a variety of problems - mostly filter clogging.

Good luck,
Yoko

"I went on to make an inline fuel heater with glow plug and noticed a dramatic power increase with the electrical heating. Unfortunately before I could get a reading on the fuel temp of the overflow at the injector the glow plug malfunctioned and started a fuel fire that torched the car. This was a VW Rabbit IDI but it had a similar injector and head design to the MBZ"


I had a car fire with a saab.... and this is what I am afaird of... the only effective way to heat is with the glow plug... and I am just scared to do it...

That's not true. There are many ways to heat the oil.
http://www.fattywagons.com/fwproducts.htm

Danny

__________________
1984 300SD Turbo Diesel 150,000 miles

OBK member #23

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination

Rapeseed, aka canola, is a better oil than soy, having a lower iodine value. Elsbet doesn't recommend soy, used or new, just new canola.

__________________
'83 240D with 617.952 and 2.88
'01 VW Beetle TDI
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD
'89 Toyota 4x4, needs 2L-T
'78 280Z with L28ET - 12.86@110
Oil Burner Kartel #35

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...oD/bioclip.jpg

Here is a quote from the link above. Makes me question their knowledge:

"It is good practice to drive fairly hard upon first starting the vehicle to bring it up to operating temperature as soon as possible."

__________________
1976 BMW 2002- 100k
1995 BMW 325i 175k
1984 Mercedes Benz 300D Turbo Diesel- 270,000 mi

1981 Mercedes Benz 240D- Estimated 300,000+ mi Returned to the earth

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/


More information than you every wanted.

__________________
1984 300D Turbo Diesel - 211700+ mileage (now sold)
http://www.maj.com/gallery/Ned/benz/sig.jpg
In any of my posts, it is safe to assume
that I'm talking about this car.

it seems as if no one is dealing in reality....It is impossible to heat
your oil to 200 degreess in any reasonable time... If you use water
the water in a mercedes runs 175-185 85-90c so water cant get it that
hot... and if it takes the water 15 minutes to reach that temp then it
will take it another 40 minutes to bring 20gal of oil to that temp...remember you car only carries 2 gals of coolant and it take it 15 minutes to heat up to
85c

just thank about a 20gal pot of oil on your kitchen stove... and your kitchen stove is powered by 220 volts...

now the exhaust will reach 600 deg and that could heat 20gals of oil to 200 deg in probably 20 minutes but I usually dont drive that far... I dont want to drive 20 minutes on diesel before I turn on the wvo...

the fuel injector line heaters will raise the temp somewhat but not to the levels called for....

the reason the fuel injector heats the oil is becasue its super hot from combustion and the amount of oil is many times less than a tee spoon...

Has anyone figured out the purpose of the fuel thermostat in a 603?

Sixto

Is that your expert opinion?

__________________
1984 300SD Turbo Diesel 150,000 miles

OBK member #23

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination

Alexander Noack from Elsbett is coming to the US in July to do workshops on installing his kit. He said he will do one in my neck of the woods if I am able to get a garage with a lift.

Anyone interested? Anyone know of a gargage in the Annapolis, Baltimore, Washington D.C. area that is willing to offer up its facility?

Elsbett's kit includes differrent injector nozzles to spray the oil properly, longer glowplugs that stay on temporarily after start up so oil is never cold in the combustion chamber, and two fuel preheaters that get the oil plenty hot.

I have been running the kit for 6 months without a hitch in my 99. I even started up in 22F weather after sitting 5 1/2 hours at night on 100% canola oil and drove 30 minutes home.

Their website is www.elsbett.com.

__________________
-disav

99 E300 TURBODIESEL Astral Silver 282K - AMG brakes, suspension, monoblocks, speedo & interior - Full Load Maxed on IP by custom Speed Tuning USA Chip - T3/T4 Garrett - EGR/MAF delete
98 E300 TURBODIESEL Alexandrite Green on black leather 289K
95 E300 DIESEL Green Queen 267K SOLD
84 300D 216k SOLD
87 300D 299K #22 head - intercooler - full load adj. - 8sec 0-60mph - SOLD
76 300D 214K SOLD

re the economics
yesterday I filled up with B100 at Houston Biodiesel for $2.59/gal
~20¢ cheaper than diesel

__________________
Bill

'82 300SD 195K
'84 300SD 199K

It is amazing how easy it is to torch a car. In college I accidentally torched my pals Mitsubishi Starion when I tried to prove to him his fuel pump was out. Too much prime gas and a backfire. I'm glad nobody got hurt. The Rabbit fire was interesting. I used a glow plug in a copper plumbing tee inline on the oil line. It was switched with a relay using switched power - that is when I shut the car down the glow plug should have had its power cut even if I forgot the switch. Well, I suspect the relay melted and jammed on the ride, when I parked it, I came back and the car was torched. People were all standing around staring at the heap of ash. Most embarrassing were my "biodiesel" and "namaste" stickers all over the back of the car.

I saw some nice glow plug heaters that used thermal switches (the kind in appliances) that open when you hit the right temperature. These will keep the thing from running away if the relay gets stuck on. Maybe two in series high temp + med temp just to make sure?

Blueranger - I like your take on the injector heating. I pretty much convinced myself that this is doing the majority of the heating job. I've torn down MBZ injectors and the actual volume of oil in the ceramic portion of the nozzel is just tiny = sub sub teaspoon. I just used a stupid thermal diffusivity equilibrium formula from a college engineering class - you know, how long does it take to heat a potato if the inside temp is X, the water is Y, the conductivity of the potato is Z, the diameter of the potato D, kind of approximation and that oil will heat up quick - about as quick as it sits in the injector between 4 to 5 fuel pulses.

What I don't like about pure oil is the rough starts. I used to cut with Kerosene (because I had a $0.20/gallon source once) to get good starts. Now I just switch over to diesel. The heating saves my filters too. Since I filter pretty well in my garage, by the time I burn the oil the only thing that gives me trouble is the butter that makes it through. This gets melted nicely in my heated filter and fuel line. I also plumbed a backflush so I can soak my filter in hot diesel overnight if the filter gets slow.

I've rebuilt a 617 that had stuck rings. Never burned veg in it but it was simply abused by the previous owner. It is discussed in this forum under "smoking diesel".

"Reality" for me is that I seldom get injection temps over 150F. My copper fuel line on the header is hot to the touch but I notice the further I get from the header it gets cooler (duh!). I wrapped the line in fiberglass tape recently and wrapped my heated fuel filter in that aluminum foil bubble wrap from Home Depot. The car runs fine and makes as much power as diesel as far as I can feel.

Cheers,
Yoko

I am absolutely fascinated by this whole discussion. I had no idea that you could run cars on cooking oil. At the risk of asking a question that has been answered elsewhere before, how is the mileage on WVO? Better, worse, or about the same as straight diesel?

Is the attraction mainly environmental or is it economical?

Thanks for your indulgence.

Dee

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

I get about 2 mpg less, and there is noticeably less power.

On the plus side... the car idles and drives amazingly smooth. There is probably 80% less noise at idle (it doesn't make a racket and shake as much), less smoke, smoother acceleration (this may make it feel like it's slower then it is), and nice smelling exhaust

I get the oil from the cafeteria at my work so it doesn't cost me anything. I normally drive a truck that gets 15 mpg so the cost savings are significant on a longer trip. It'll take awhile for the cost savings to outpace the cost of the conversion but I'm very happy with it so far. If you are trying to do this to save money I'd suggest to rethink your plan since that's not really the main objective in my opinion.