My former mechanic's shoddy work could have cost my life today - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

d.delano · #31 06-15-2006, 10:58 AM

Twitch-
You're right dude.
The customer should just absorb the mechanic's mistakes.
Grin and bear it, eh?

Either there are some people to whom the principle of this discussion is patently elusive, or there are professional mechanics here who take issue with the fact that they must be responsible for their work. Both boil down to a distinct lack of reason and accountability.
Three sides to every story and all, but the song remains the same: DO YOUR ****ING JOB AND NOBODY GETS HURT

TwitchKitty · #32 06-15-2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

noone said the spindle nut was left loose, just the lock nut allen screw was not tightened. and from the few posts the OP left, it looks like he did notice it...
John

That is so good johnny! And noone includes me, I didn't say that either. And BTW noone isn't a word. The spindle nut wasn't left loose but it ended up loose. This has absolutely less than nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Blah Blah maybe maybe not maybe you maybe me Blah Blah

He noticed when the brake pedal went to the floor. Was that the first indication of a problem? Maybe the spindle nut loosened because because the locknut was left loose. You think? Just maybe? Maybe some wobble, some shaking, some noise?

Once again, we are trained from an early age to draw lines and take sides, it is almost never that simple. Both sides are to blame. Do what you can. It didn't happen here.

I am probably more thorough with my pretrip checking than most people but that has been drilled into me in my pilot training, boat captain training, and commercial driver training. I think everyone could learn a little from that training, maybe I'm wrong. It has been known to happen.

d.delano · #33 06-15-2006, 12:17 PM

Well I agree with the precheck philosophy of course. But Twitch I think you're getting my story and Willrev's story intermingled. As far as I recall his pedal didn't go to the floor, mine did as I was coming down a mountainside. All the precheck in the world would not have seen that one.
You are still not addressing mechanics and their responsibility toward their work. What do you think Uncle Sam does when one of his fighter mechanics messes up a job? Hmmmm? He doesn't pay him with a smile and say 'gee I should have checked the plane out guess it's my fault'. The poor dumb bastard gets his ass handed to him on a plate, that's what.

edit: 'twas me getting confused, not Twitch

C Sean Watts · #34 06-15-2006, 03:20 PM

Don't get me wrong about all the bureaucratic BULL SQUEEZE in the FAA BUT Does this all not speak to WHY a mechanic (A&P) has someone looking over his shoulder (I/A) and they both generally use a checklist??

TwitchKitty · #35 06-15-2006, 03:40 PM

I have said repeatedly that the mechanic shares the fault.

Edit: The mechanic is to blame for the loose spindle, the driver is to blame for the accident that may ensue.

TwitchKitty · #36 06-15-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Sean Watts

Don't get me wrong about all the bureaucratic BULL SQUEEZE in the FAA BUT Does this all not speak to WHY a mechanic (A&P) has someone looking over his shoulder (I/A) and they both generally use a checklist??

Pilot uses many checklists.

hawthorne90250 · #37 06-15-2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Sean Watts

Don't get me wrong about all the bureaucratic BULL SQUEEZE in the FAA BUT Does this all not speak to WHY a mechanic (A&P) has someone looking over his shoulder (I/A) and they both generally use a checklist??

I am a Aircraft mechanic and i don't subscibe to the argument "people make mistakes" If a person makes a "mistake" they are either, Not qualified to be working on someones car, on Drugs/Alc,or simply do not give a damm and are only interested in $$$, These people exist in every industry not just Auto, and if a person does make a mistake this does not absolve them from responsibilty.

I am in no way taking a position on what happened to Willrevs
Car as i have no idea.

An IA or QC/RII are only required for certain jobs, on the line you pretty much better do the job right using the correct procedure (AMM etc)or you will be sorry you were born, The customers kin don't care that we "just made a mistake".

Jim B. · #38 06-15-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Holmes III

The shop is at fault. Period. The shop put the customers life in danger, the mechanic should be drug tested, and everything they touched should be inspected for shoddy workmanship.

To expect the average driver to be aware of the possible shortcomings of repairs is absurd.

As the customer I agree 100%

Back in around 1972 I took my 1967 Mercury Cougar to Sears in Sacramento for a brake job, and driving down the street there seemed to be a rattling sound coming from the front end, I couldn't figure out what it was.
Finally it seemed I could get the idea it was coming from the right front wheel, so I took out the jack handle and pried off the hubcap, and 2 or 3 lug nuts fell on to the street!! You believe it?

I wrote a letter saying the wheel could have fallen off at speed and I could have been injured or killed, and they sent me a letter of apology and a coupon for $10.00

Fast forward to 1988, now living in San Francisco and I took the Ford Crown Victoria in for an oil change to S and C (Ford dealer in SF), took the car home, the next morning I went outside and there was a HUGE LAKE of an oil slick under the car, I got under and found they only finger tightened the drain plug after they changed the oil, which ALL leaked out the motor overnight. I could have driven away and not noticed and fried the engine.

I went back there, furious, and guess what - they offered me ONE quart of oil, from the parts department, that's right, ONE quart.

Neither of these mistakes was rocket science, just stupid negligence by the tech.

I have NO patience with incompetent mechanics, I put my trust in them and that is it, I ask them to do it right the first time. Evidently there are a lot of mechanics here, so I ask, Am I unreasonable here?

How about let's make it a rhetorical question

!!!

Jim B.

C Sean Watts · #39 06-15-2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hawthorne90250

I am a Aircraft mechanic and i don't subscibe to the argument "people make mistakes" If a person makes a "mistake" they are either, Not qualified to be working on someones car, on Drugs/Alc,or simply do not give a damm and are only interested in $$$, These people exist in every industry not just Auto, and if a person does make a mistake this does not absolve them from resonsibilty.

I am in no way taking a position on what happened to Willrevs
Car as i have no idea.

An IA or QC/RII are only required for certain jobs, on the line you pretty much better do the job right using the correct procedure (AMM etc)or you will be sorry you were born, The customers kin don't care that we "just made a mistake".

DAMN SKIPPY, The only difference is with a car already on the ground you CAN pull over - most of the time. Multi-generational military aviation lent LOTS of lessons to me. A BIG one being the excuse (or who pays for the screw up) is only good for a brief time and that brief time might be the rest of your life. Some of us engineers seem to forget that it applies to us, too

Scott98 · #40 06-15-2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veloce300DT

Scott98-

I couldnt disagree with you more!

While you arent EXPECTED to do any of those things, I would think that it would be in anybodys BEST INTEREST do double check all contracted work no matter what it is BEFORE and AFTER!

"If you go to a doctor, and get treated are you expected to research the apropreate treatment methods on your own to make sure the doctor didnt make a mistake?"

I CERTAINLY hope ANYONE going in to have a medical health problem checked, diagnosed, and treated will research their symptoms on their own, research possible problems on their own, research various different reatments on their own, and get multiple opinions from expert doctors BEFORE they are treated- not only to better EDUCATE YOURSELF about your problem, but to also better understand the doctors, healing options, and to avoid a misdiagnoisis, or even worse, malpractice!!!!! And it makes even MORE sense to have your now resolved medical issue double checked AFTER treatment to ensure that everything related is properly healing etc....

"If you hire a contractor to build a deck, are you expected to learn the building codes afterwards and make sure he built it correctly?"

I would think the WISEST thing to do would be to research your local building codes related to the job YOURSELF, BEFORE a contractor is even hired to ensure that you are hiring a reputable contractor who knows what he is doing. This is a priceless thing to do on your OWN as it can save you from possibly having to spend MORE $$ correcting a job carried out by a contractor whom didnt build following local building codes.... which is a far more common practice than one might think! Do you know how INSANE building codes can be?, and how tempting it is to cut corners if it means saving energy and time on a bunch of b.s. regulations? I see it happen all the time, and when something isnt to code, the property owner is fined, and you have to hire another contractor to bring things up to code.

"If you hire someone to do your taxes, are you expected to become familiar with the tax codes and double check their work?"

I certainly would so I know that my taxes are 100% properly filed to avoid getting less or more than I really should.

Being educated about matters like these never hurts, NEVER. It can only work in your favor, and be a TOTAL benefit in the long run- wether it be saving your life, saving your money, or saving time making corrections for issues that should have never existed in the first place. I personally feel that as a consumer it is my JOB to educate myself about such issues so I can be sure that when I subcontract any type of work out to someone else that I am getting the best possible service/product for the price.

And I must say that the same applies to auto repair. I personally feel that if you own a car, it is in your favor to not only know how to push the gas pedal, shift the gears, hit the breaks, pump the gas, and pop the hood, BUT to also know HOW IT WORKS. Not only so you can be more knowledgeable and aware about the machine you pilot, but also so you can bettter understand your mechanic and services that are performed on your car- which enables you to be able to tell if something isnt right when you get your car back. If you have a tire rotation performed, shake the tires after you get the car back. Know how they are supposed to feel when you shake them. Know what your car feels like when it is in proper mechanical shape while you are driving it. WHY? so things like wheels dont fall off 4 blocks down the street and send your car careening into oncoming traffic, or up onto a sidewalk full of pedestrians.. which you as a person will be responsible for- in addition to your tech. You may be paying someone to do a job for you, but unfortunately that doesnt mean its going to get done right. and beyond that, mechanical quality control can be beyond that of human control. Mechanical components are bound to break.

There are lots of idiots out there- even doctors, contractors, tax agents, and mechanics. Go the extra mile and first protect YOURSELF before you put that responsibility into someone elses hands. Make sure that you are confident that you are putting responsibility into competent hands.

Nobody likes getting hurt, or hurting other people- esp. mechanics whom have a reputation to hold in order to get business. There is a certain amount of responsibility a consumer must take on before they can pass on the responsibility to a 2nd party contractee... and vs. versa. Its unfortunate that many consumers feel no obligation, or desire to know more about things like this. And it is unfortunate that there are service providers that operate at less than qualified levels.
But in the end we are responsible for only ourselves, and our own well being. "Thats what insurance is for" "Thats what lawyers are for". Why let it escalate to that level?

Isnt it great knowing that you have a hefty amt of control over how your life, finances, and assets are handled? and WHO the best person to utilize in aid is?

I certainly would rather make my own educated decsions about how my life and assets are best handled to my BEST interests than to let others take on those decisions for me, even if I dont have the expertise and ability to carry the WORK out all by myself. It is in MY best interest. It enables me to avoid as many headaches and problems as possible in the long run.

an EDUCATED consumer is a smart consumer, I dont think there are many that would disagree. Why do you think I am a member of this forum?

Is a mechanic responsible for checking on work that he/she completed 2 months ago? Only if you put that responsibility into his hands. hopefull he has good ones.

I agree with you in that someone should be as educated as possible in a variety of things to protect themselves. However, not everyone has the ability to be educated in every subject. Sometimes a little bit of knowledge is even more dangerous than no knowledge at all. It still doesn't change the fact that when someone is paid to do a job, they should perform it with competence. You are hiring that person for their expertise. Furthermore, when that person is negligent they should be held accountable.

Scott

TwitchKitty · #41 06-15-2006, 10:52 PM

The comparison using aircraft mechanics as the gold standard of perfection is somewhat humorous to me because I have been around aircraft all of my life and airlines and airline employees for a significant part of it. Many airline mechanics do not like to fly after they see what goes on behind the scenes and many pilots tell horrific stories of mechanic's screw-ups.

Airlines are run more like bus lines than like a space program. Just keep 'em in the air, making money.

Complaint: right engine low on power - solution: install left engine with lower power to match.

Complaint: right engine fuel flow reading low - solution: recalibrate fuel flow meter.

I am amazed that people actually believe that there is anyone who never makes mistakes, nobody is perfect. I had a boss once who was famous for saying that "if you never make a mistake it is because you are not doing any work." The best you can hope for is someone who can catch their own mistakes.

I am also amazed that people actually believe they don't need to safety inspect their own cars. I bet we could pull new cars off of lots and find flaws in a significant percentage of them. A twenty year old car without flaws would be a rarity.

It is so easy to demand perfection from mechanics (or anyone) on an internet forum when there is not a bill to pay.

tangofox007 · #42 06-15-2006, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwitchKitty

The comparison using aircraft mechanics as the gold standard of perfection is somewhat humorous to me because I have been around aircraft all of my life and airline and airline employees for a significant part of it. Many airline mechanics do not like to fly after they see what goes on behind the scenes and many pilots tell horrific stories of mechanic's screw-ups.

Ditto.

#43 06-15-2006, 11:58 PM

By the same token, if the average consumer saw what goes on behind the scenes at many auto repair shops they would be shocked. I can tell you that I have seen cars sabatoged because the owner declined certain repairs, and I have seen customers cars driven home at night and used for personal errand running during the day. I had the seat belts replaced on a vehicle under warranty once. They used a 1/4 tank of fuel because they had the car running with the a/c on for four hours while working inside the car. When I caught them, the service manager denied everything. Another time, after having a O2 sensor replaced, I watched the mechanic do a burn out with my car behind the shop(it was NOT my 300D).

My policy now is to not to allow the vehicle to leave the premises. If my car is going to be abused, I am going to be the one doing it, not the mechanic.

RobTheMod · #44 06-16-2006, 02:51 AM

Sorry, I don't agree. I did two brake jobs and a drivability issue today... all three went for a five mile test drive afterwards. As per company policy. If you come in for an LOF or to get a taillight replaced, then it will stay on the premises... anything involving brake work or running condition is going on the road, period. I want to *know* that your rough idle is cured, or that your brakes are fully operational, when you come to get your car. And it will be left running, with the A/C on, in the yard of the shop when you come to pick it up. Or would you complain about the fuel that uses? For the record; if a customer lost a wheel as per the origin of this post, my response would have been quite different... but this whole "no test drive" thing is antithetical to a good reapir job in most cases.

rchase · #45 06-16-2006, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Sean Watts

Don't get me wrong about all the bureaucratic BULL SQUEEZE in the FAA BUT Does this all not speak to WHY a mechanic (A&P) has someone looking over his shoulder (I/A) and they both generally use a checklist??

At least the FAA is fair about things. If the mechanic forgets to do something he gets nailed with an enforcement action. If I miss an item during my preflight inspection and have an inflight emergency that gets noticed I also get an enforcement action rammed up my empenage too!