So, what other options do we currently have here for new off-the-shelf OM616/7 nozzles, if not Bosch(India- improved or not) and Bosio. I do not know of any.

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80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)

In the USA? I think the choices are "limited" to non-existent.

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1998 W210 diesel (wiped out by a texter)
Baum spring compressor "for rent"

Agreed about the magnification which I don't have, but after years of looking at these and various other nozzles and fine machine parts, you can tell when when a part has better machining tollerances and crisper edges etc. as a rough gauge of mfg. quality.

The real determination regarding quality will have to wait another 220K miles to see if they really are on par with the Bosch Germany nozzles. But for now I'm happy with them and they seem to perform well

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Stable Mates:
1987 300TD 310K mi (Hans)
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee OM642 165k mi (Benzrokee)

Can't most people simply take their old injectors to a local diesel shop and have them rebuilt? I am planning on doing that in a week or two. The guy quoted me $45 each and they completely rebuild/replace whatever is needed. He said he has all the internal parts on hand, etc. Price includes testing/spray pattern, etc.

Wouldn't that be the same or better than going out and buying rebuilt injectors?

BTW - he said he had never heard of Bosio, but that his nozzles did come from Italy - thought they were better than the ones they were getting prior.

It is a reputable shop.

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'85 300D - 206K (sold)
'81 240D - 149K (sold)
'03 Jetta TDI - (sold)
'79 300D - (sold)

There are a few options available to people having injector issues. Some of these options work for some people, fail for others and often have different results. Is this due soley to the option chosen?...or is it due to other underlying issues? I don't think anyone knows for sure really.

So...

*You can just simply replace your injectors with new/rebuilt units out of the box.
*You can have your new/rebuilt units tested/balanced by a shop prior to install
*You can have your originals tested, rebuilt and balanced by a shop
*You can do the whole rebuilding yourself
*You can simply do a partial rebuild, i.e. just replacing nozzles
*In some cases you can simply purge and fix the originals
*Or you can just remove thoroughly clean and reassemble the originals and see if this help, especially when coked up.

In essence your decision criteria will likely be based on cost, access to services, you knowledge and comfort level in doing this.

If you are getting a quote from a shop you trust at $45 each that's a good deal, same cost as rebuilt units, although guaranteed to have been balanced.
Up to you. For me, the nozzle approach was $28 each and I figured balancing was not needed as my idle and running quality was good to start with.

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Stable Mates:
1987 300TD 310K mi (Hans)
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee OM642 165k mi (Benzrokee)

If you search you will find a thread with pictures of magnified nozzle seats. It clearly shows the difference between several grades of nozzle quality. The biggest difference is in the polished finish of the valve seats where the high pressure sealing and injecting take place.

You cannot see this with your naked eye or with a desk magnifying glass. You need at least a loupe, that is one of the tools I use. Anything else is speculation or a sales pitch.

Dig a little deeper. In several of the diesel injection shops I have visited to talk to the techs, they had never heard of the pintle holes in the injectors for the 617 engine. In other words they had no idea of what it takes to make these injectors work correctly. There is no way that they can clean the pintle holes in your nozzles for the amount of money we are talking about here.

They do a lot of work on other diesels and very little on automotive diesels.

Often the guy with the certifications is not the one who will work on your injectors.

Once again I agree......wow twice in one day.

If you want it done right you should find an authorized dealer. They won't charge any more than any other local shop.

You can contact the Robert Bosch Corporation for a local authorized dealer near you:

Robert Bosch Corporation
2800 S. 25th Avenue
Broadview, Illinois 60155
(708) 865-5200

danny

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1984 300SD Turbo Diesel 150,000 miles

OBK member #23

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Bosio's have been around for a looong time, they may not have been as well known in the US diesel market and particularly with respect to MB's is the US, but they are very well known and respected throughout Europe. Here's a cool link regarding some exclusive views into the Fratelli Bosio factory and a meeting with the founder and current management. Great info for more details on the company it's history, manufacturing and products:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=601877

Also google them as Fratelli Bosio and you will see tons of hits on their extended use in the performance diesel industry here in the US and worldwide, pretty consistent rave reviews throughout.


TwichKitty:
Thanks, I had seen the magnified images that you mentioned, as well as others on the TDI and several other diesel forums with similar images of various nozzles. From what I have seen, the Bosio machine work seems comparable to German Bosch in those images as well as the metallurgical properties; this is in part why I chose them as a suitable alternative to non-German Bosch ones.


I do not market, sell or promote for Bosio or for any reseller. I do extensive research into any product I consider buying and keep an open mind to those that may not yet be as pervasive in my locality. There is always something else better out there if you’re willing to look and research.

I also wholeheartedly agree, don't believe all the hype...buyer beware, do your research first and then shop with confidence.

Since I have these installed, I will comment on their performance over time and use, I average about 25k miles a year, so it shouldn't be long to get some meaningful results.

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Stable Mates:
1987 300TD 310K mi (Hans)
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee OM642 165k mi (Benzrokee)

Actually, the owner (or main guy) drives a 124 TD and they are an authorized Bosch dealer. Probably why he claims he has all internal parts required. The best foreign indy shop in LaCrosse uses these guys for their injector work.

I will question the pintle thing though when I bring them in. I'm pulling the injectors form my parts car so my driver is not out of commision. However, I think his quoted price includes the new Itallian injectors. I will verify exactly what they do for the $45.

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'85 300D - 206K (sold)
'81 240D - 149K (sold)
'03 Jetta TDI - (sold)
'79 300D - (sold)

All,

After buying Indian made Bosch nozzles, which started shooting a thin stream before popping, so I think that means they're crap, where does one buy French made Bosch nozzles?

So is the concensus that if your engine idles well, (mine idles pretty smooth, but smokes a bit at idle and has mediocre performance) you can just replace the nozzles yourself? My shop here quoted $25 per injector for nozzle replacement, balance, and spray pattern test. Thats if I supply the nozzles (Bosio).

If I changed the nozzles myself I could save $125. How many here have done them themselves? I have read the writeup on the DG site and it doesn't look all that complicated....so I am sure I could change them....but is the balancing at testing really that necessary?

__________________
-diesel is not just a fuel, its a way of life-
'15 GLK250 Bluetec 118k - mine - (OC-123,800)
'17 Metris(VITO!) - 37k - wifes (OC-41k)
'09 Sprinter 3500 Winnebago View - 62k (OC - 67k)
'13 ML350 Bluetec - 95k - dad's (OC-98k)
'01 SL500 - 103k(km) - dad's (OC-110,000km)
'16 E400 4matic Sedan - 148k - Brothers (OC-155k)

The injectors should hold pressure less than pop pressure for a length of time. This is an important failure leading to fuel in the combusion chamber at the wrong time.

I would contact fastlane, the owners of this site, for parts.

You can replace nozzles yourself and not test them but then you have to guess if they are right. I bought a tester but I wanted to play some with diesels. It wasn't a money saving thing for me.

Well, I may try it, and if they're not working right I'll pull them again and have the shop just "balance and test them"....I think its only $12 each for that, since I'd have done the nozzle part myself.

__________________
-diesel is not just a fuel, its a way of life-
'15 GLK250 Bluetec 118k - mine - (OC-123,800)
'17 Metris(VITO!) - 37k - wifes (OC-41k)
'09 Sprinter 3500 Winnebago View - 62k (OC - 67k)
'13 ML350 Bluetec - 95k - dad's (OC-98k)
'01 SL500 - 103k(km) - dad's (OC-110,000km)
'16 E400 4matic Sedan - 148k - Brothers (OC-155k)

Having recently done both Bosio`s and Indian Bosch ill pass along what i experienced.On my car which was running poorly and nailing badly on one injector,i first swapped that injector into another cylinder to be sure it was actually an injector problem.I then pop tested them and the bad one was just squirting,no spray pattern or atomization,the other 4 were decent and probably would have responded to a good cleaning.
I chose Bosio nozzles to replace with as there seems to be good results with them in VWs (see TDIclub.com) ,i pop tested them before i ran them and they were all just very slightly above the hi side of the spec but very consistent.The first few days there was a bit more combustion rattle than i would like but they soon quieted down and the car runs very well,starts instantly and no visible smoke in the daytime unless i really floor it from a standing start.
My sons car (both300d 2.5s his 93 mine 91) i did not hear run before we did the nozzle change but he said he also had one knocking pretty loud,loud enough that he was concerned about the possibility of an internal engine problem.We pop tested his and found one very poor the others probably ok.He ordered Bosch and of course ended up with the India made Bosch.We assembled them and pop tested them and found them all well above spec and one was way off.We of course did not have the shims to correct them.I dont remember the numbers but he felt they were too far off spec to run them so took them to a Bosch shop to have them set.when installed in the car they ran quieter than the Bosios did when first put in.His car runs good does not smoke seems to have good power.
I guess in a few years we may be able to tell which set held up better,but for now my thought on the subject is that the Bosios were more consistent which one would think points to better manufacturing quality control. My $.02 Don

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Red Green "This is only temporary,Unless it works!"

97 E300D 157000 miles
87 300TD ?141k? miles