Lifters replaced ... new bad noise ... :(
 

I had my ticky lifters replaced on the 603, by my very trusted and very knowledgable indy, this week. Well, on first startup the car is super smooth ... sounds great. As soon as I hit the pedal, it sounds like a chainsaw under the hood, and THEN, when it returns to idle, there's a loud ticking. When I took it back in and asked my indy about it, he noticed the ticking too (but not the buzzsaw sound at low rpm ... it didn't seem to make as much noise when we went on a "test drive"). He checked all the injectors (loosened nuts), and they were fine. When we drove it he thought it sounded normal, and to be honest, it did at that moment ... we were driving around city so there was some outside noise. When I get it on the quite back roads, it just sounds wretched. He said to drive it for a week, bring it back and if it still sounds bad, maybe he can replace the timing chain ... but beyond that, he doesn't think it would be worth sinking money into.

This has me very upset ... this mechanic is super ... if there was something fixable, he would find it and fix it. He has worked on these cars for years and years. I trust he will figure this out. But should I be really worried? Obviously whatever is wrong happened while the lifters were being replaced ... not that it caused it, but maybe something that was waiting to go wrong? It ticked before, but did not make this kind of noise. What else could it be? My indy mentioned it might be a piston. Could it be that one of the new lifters is just a dud (causing the new tick)? Would the buzz noise be from a bad timing chain?

I really am not ready to lose this car at this point. It is just too nice, and ran so great. :(

what is the break in period for new lifters?

From what I understand, they should be quiet as soon as they go in. My indy seemed surprised that it still ticked, although he did say to drive it around a while and see if it doesn't smooth out.

It is not unusual for new lifters to tick for some time.
I had one 603 that ticked for 150 miles before it fell silent.

There is no 'break in' period...they should go quiet within a few seconds of start up....but some times one or two will take a while to quiet down.

As long as the profile of the camshaft is good there's no break in proceedure.

Possibilities are that working on the engine knocked loose some dirt, the lifters have presevative in them that has not flushed out yet.....low oil pressure to the head.
What does the gauge say oil pressure is warm ?

What I would be worried about is the buzzing noise.
I would suggest looking at the chain and guides very carefully and checking cam retard which will indicate chain stretch.

The injectors and pump would not sound like the noise you hear. any bad injector will knock loudly at idle and on tip in.

Are you sure the fan or the crank pulley are not touching anything?


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It's possible that the mechanic didn't wait a couple of hours after installation of the new lifters to start the engine. This is done to make sure that the lifters aren't pumped up and holding a valve open when the engine is first started. Another possible scenario is that something is loose under the valve cover. I certainly wouldn't pay him to throw more parts at it, if he had to remove the camshaft, it's very possible that he has disturbed the chain tensioner or camshaft timing, causing the engine to make strange sounds. If you paid with a credit card I would dispute the charges, because I'm sure the bill was north of $800 or so. Don't let this scumbag laugh on his way to the bank. IMHO.

A mechanic is "super" only to the point where he has reached the limits of his knowledge. Then, he becomes clueless. The reason is that he typically won't spend the time necessary to research and figure out his problem. We'll see if this mechanic remains in the "super" category.......or not.

With regard to the noises, I agree completely with DK. The ticking can be a lifter that will eventually quiet down..........or not.........if it's defective from the factory. Either way.........you'll know in 200 miles or so.

Now, the buzzing noise is not good. It is unlikely to be a problem that was "waiting to happen" when the camshaft was removed. Clearly, something regarding the removal and replacement of the cam was improper. Such a sound may be a metal upon metal rub that definitely should not be present. It's important to present this sound to the mechanic and demand that the problem be found. It is related to the work performed to install the new lifters.

As a trusted Indy, he has earned the latitude so far, but I believe it does have it's limits. I do not believe the noise (that wasn't present before) should be casually explained away. Give him the opportunity to fix it, but be firm that it DOES need to be fixed.
Even very good mechanics are stumped every now and then. Usually they figure it out, and if not, should "do you right" in the aftermath.
My very trusted indy never could figure out the smoking on "The Flash" after keeping it a month. He didn't bill me for a whole lot of time, since he said he hadn't found anything yet. He did say that from a point it would start to get expensive, and we agreed the car wasn't worth the effort down that road.
Keep us posted....

Ask the mechanic if he checked the timing, if so did he use a RIV indicator? (two LED's on a small box w/ cable that connects to the IP) if he didn't then he needs one. Its possible the timing is off one tooth or so. That buzz saw sound is a problem though, I don't know what that could be unless the chain tensioner is bad or it could be a guide rail.
I wouldn't drive very far or very fast until its checked out further.
A few members had results when they added Rislone to the oil - instant quiet from dirty lifters. That would be a cheap and easy test to see if it is a new lifter that has some crud in it.
The car ran great before the work, so its obvious something was "disturbed" during the work. One fellow I know ran a noisy 603 on a broken camshaft, it had cracked due to improper tightening sequence by a mechanic that had replaced - - - what? you guessed it, the lifters! Removing it the second time it came out in two pieces.

Oh, he's as far from a scumbag as can be ... he did not even let me pay until we can sort it out. He wanted me to drive it around and observe first.

Thanks guys. I will keep you posted. The only reason the indy wasn't concerned about the buzz noise was that he could not hear it. It's always possible that my imagination has exaggerated it in my mind. If it were something terribly wrong, I would think he would have heard it while we were driving. You never know though, even the best make mistakes, or random bad luck just strikes. I just pray it turns out OK for my car. I can get another car, but I won't ever get another car that has been a part of my life since I was 6 years old. :(

Well if i was a scumbag i wouldnt want the customer to pay if i had to charge the customer more $$$ for more work.

Not saying that he is a scumbag just stating my opinion.

I'd bet that the "injection pump timing" is off.
 

I'd also bet that the injection pump will have to come out and be "re-timed" before the car runs right again. From my experience, anytime that camshaft gear has to come off, you might as well just add an "injection pump re-timing job", as well, once the tension on the camshaft gear and injection pump gear is released (that is why it is best, per manuals, to keep TENSION on the chain to keep the injection pump from jumping time, in my opinion and practice). And if you don't really know how to re-time the pump, the problem is going to get WORSE, before it gets better. A piston being the problem?, it could be. But usually things just don't happen, AS SOON AS a repair is done at the shop, not things like a piston going bad over night and going bad coincidentally at the same time the camshaft was removed. Anyway, I'd put my money on the injection timing being off.

BenzDiesel

Hydrolic lifters have to fill with oil to work; normally running the engine will do this but it can take 15- 20 minutes and shutting off the engine & starting it cycles.
Loud ticking and poor running is to be expected during this "fill" time.
Maybe one or two are sticking also.

Try a quart of Lucas Engine Oil Stabilizer.

I have found this does make a difference. It may help.

There is no break in period for new lifters, nor should they require any additives to quiet them down. Synthetic oil often helps quiet old lifters. I'm assuming you're using the correct weight oil (xW-40 or xW-50). I agree that the injection pump timing MUST be double checked after doing this job, however I can't imagine the car would run well at all with the pump timing 1 chain tooth off. With new lifters in my 603 there was no break in, no pump up time, no snake oil needed, no nothing - just quiet lifters ever since. Yours should be the same, IMO.

:rolleyes: