What to do about HIGH diesel
 

Anybody have any ideas what we can do about the high cost of diesel? I know you're all going to say write the legislators but there has got to be something else. Try and get the truckers behind us maybe?

I am so sick of buying this overpriced fuel. I do burn WVO in one of my cars but I also have a truck that I use for my business thats a diesel burner.

HHO production and higher tax on diesel cannot be the only culprits. There is something else behind this, trust me.

Guys, this is so ridiculous. We've all got to band together somehow and get this situation under control. The oil companies are so outta line. RUG has dropped to $2.35 today and diesel is still hanging at $2.85!!!

I am seriously considering getting rid of one of my diesel cars and buying a gasser like a Toyota or something. There are used 30 MPG vehicles out there that are priced about the same as my 240.

Frustrated,

Bill

Nothing really, get a gas car next time around is about all we can do.

I guess if you have a VW TDI that gets over 40 the numbers still work. But these old MB's get mid 20's, heck mine get low 20's. The numbers just don't work.

Old MB's only get good fuel mileage on ebay.:rolleyes:

Isn't diesel (basically kero) used for heating oil? Figure the jack the price up for the soon to happen winter...

Just brew your own if you have the capacity.

Can't be HHO alone keeping the price up. .50 more a gallon is just too much to justify.

If someone who lives in my area brews their own, drop me a PM. I'd love to see how its done first hand. Read all the bio forums but nothing as good as someone actually showing you. I've got plenty of room here for the setup and also have 55 gal. WVO that I've been blending. Bio seems a better bet for winter than a blend.

Cheers,

Bill

They get away with it as they can.

Also they "speculate" http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ilies/Wank.gif due to playing around in the middle east... Iran, Iraq, potential for hurricanes, that BP pipeline, etc.

In my case even getting "only" 20 is a good deal as the gasser taken off the road gets 10 :)

Anyway I see it is alternate fuel streams are the only other option (W/SVO,. Biodiesel, JetA with lubricants?).

I have no clue why diesel is so high seing as it's lower on the distillation tree.
Also, anyone in Sac. CA doing Biodiesel here? I too would like to see a setup.
-nB

Has anyone tried a gasifier,the WWII wood kilns used to produce gas?

Does anyone here seriously think they are saving money by driving 20 year old german luxury cars? If you just want to save money, go buy a 5 year old honda civic that gets 35 mpg. Even with cheap diesel fuel, the benz is always going to be more expensive to drive and maintain than MANY other cars. If you want to tell your wife that this little hobby is about saving money, have a ball (guys have been using that story to buy motorcycles for years). But let's not kid ourselves, this is nothing more than an expensive hobby, regardless of the cost of fuel. If you need a truck for business, fuel is just another expense that's going to keep going up.

For those who intend to run WVO or bioD, yes the intent is to save money on fuel by buying a 20 year old MB diesel.

Otherwise, we are indeed getting screwed at the moment.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_distillate.html

Compare the spot prices to on-the-road diesel. There's little if any correlation. The prices have remained relatively fixed, and the spot market has steadily decreased. I highly doubt anyone has been buying 3,6,9 month futures of the stuff to suggest such a twisted trend.

Nothing you can do, Bill, aside from avoid high-consumption driving, but I'm sure you know all that. Biodiesel is an option, although something I'm personally taking a "wait and see" stance on. Some people have had success making their own. I'll take the diesel prices for now and see where this all goes, personally, but that's my choice.

There's much hullabaloo about gasoline prices dropping now, but it's nothing permenant and it's too bad that everyone is so excited about it. It's going to do nothing but stall the absolute urgency of the situation, which means it will stall any progress towards reducing fossil fuel dependency. Saw a good editorial toon the other day ... it showed a guy with an SUV, filling it up and looking at the price saying something like "these prices are awful ... I'm going to buy a smaller car!" and then "scratch that, I'm going to get a bike!" ... next frame, there's a man climing up on the marque putting up a lower gas price ... the guy filling up the SUV, looking at the lower price, says "nevermind ... " while smiling. That's it. The price dips are hollow comfort.

So don't feel too bad ... at least our prices have been steadily high, without false hopes in between.

I wish I had an answer. If I did, I'd not be working where I'm working for the salary I'm getting. :D

Personally, I think it would be best for the economy if gas prices where set free. Let 'em rise. Focus on lowering diesel prices to keep the transportation industry in control. And that's not me being selfish about my diesel. I don't care if they keep passenger diesel drivers paying high. Yeah, it sucks, but the trickle down of high transport costs are more worrisome. We need avg drivers, diesel and gasoline, to get used to paying more and driving less. It's the only way anything will change.

Get a 190D 2.2. I've seen peoiple post that they get up to 40mpg.

I think that's the bottom line, the current US consumption is not sustainable and higher prices are probably they only way to lower consumption in the long term. The real problem is inflation, if you allow energy costs to rise too quickly, it will feed inflation. The only solution I see, is to let prices drift up to a reasonable level over several years. If you allowed fuel prices to double over 5 or 10 years, you would give the market time to respond without doing too much damage to the economy. It's an interesting problem, even if you don't consider the political part. ;)

Higher prices are also the only thing that will drive alternate fuels (bio-diesel). Currently bio-diesel costs about the same as petro-diesel, so there is no economic incentive to get serious about it. Aside from the lunatic fringe that is making their own fuel, no-one is going to save money by using bio-diesel until the cost of petro-diesel increases significantly. I don't know what price level would actually result in widespread use of bio-diesel, but I suspect it would have to be in the $5/gallon range.

Craig, my hat to your analysis. It is one of the best i've read about what a good politians should do.
Unfortunately, the bozos in power right now will use all the tricks in the book to lower the prices of gas until they will be in a monumental crisis. I will expect the prices to be kept artificially low until next summer. Then brace yourself America, the reckoning will come. And that ain't gonna be pretty.

At least until after the election. ;)

Hmmm. A bright spot. Thanks Craig. I needed that.;)

Actually my TD has been great cheap transportation so I wouldn't call it an expensive hobby. Can't see myself driving a Honda. Wife has owned Hondas as long as I've known her and they're great cars but with one major drawback. I can hardly sit in the seat. No leg room! Made for short commuters.

Bodhi, you make a lot of sense. Especially your fossil fuel dependency statement and the fact that our prices have remained high not giving us any false hopes like all the gassers are getting for the moment. Right too about the trucking industry. Although groceries are cheaper to go and get, the food itself isn't going down in price.

Anybody know where I can get a 190d 2.2? Boy, I bet my 240 would feel like a top fuel car compared to the 190.:D

Cheers,

Bill

Enlighten me. Never heard of it unless its related to making liquor. I come from a long line of, uh, shall we say liquor makers.

Cheers,

Bill

You would have to have a smoldering fire burning somewhere in/about the car, so that you can harness the wood gas, and then figure out how to mix it. If you live in the city, you're going to have to buy firewood.

I have no idea how many miles per cord you would get either.

I think that works in the short term, but unless you treat these cars as disposable you will eventually spend significant money on maintenance. Over the long term, my maintenance costs are just about the same as my fuel costs (around $.10-.15 per mile).

I have some expensive hobbies-this is nothing. Payed $4000 for a car.Saved around $1400 in fuel costs.Have only spent $200 in repairs in 14000 miles.This is nothing.

That's probably about what I spent in the first 14K miles, too. Get back to me in another 150K miles and let me know what you've spent.

Woodgas trip across Australia
 

This is the best woodgas article I've seen.
http://members.tripod.com/~highforest/woodgas/woodfired.html

There were thousands of these in use during WWII. They have been used for automobiles, buses, semis, even trains. I believe they were mostly junked immediately when gasoline became available. The Mother Earth News made some for automotive and sawmill use in the late 1970s. I have a copy of the plans they published. I met a guy who built one with some friends in California around that time. His comment was, "Forget it, a big hassle, weighs a ton, etc. PITA etc." Definitely not something you fire up for a quick trip to the corner store. But they can be rigged for a combination of gasoline and woodgas. ( Light the fire, start up on gasoline and switch to woodgas when the fire is going; step on the gas(oline) pedal for more power on hills.) They can be used with diesels if you inject a trace of diesel fuel. I have more info if anybody wants to PM me. Steve

I bought a 190E 2.3-16 valve. Well almost.

It's only going to go higher
 

Now with the introduction of USLD diesel fuel prices have no where to go but up. http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/presentations/2006/ethanol/ethanol0806_files/frame.html

If your blending 50/50 or more your cost is less than or about equal to 1/2 of pump price. At 50/50 that's fuel prices of 2002! Not getting what your beef is?

As individuals or as a group, there's not much that we can do to directly affect the retail price of petroleum products. However, some of us can feel better if we remember that --

1. Diesel prices in the west are at or over $3.00 a gallon, so $2.85 looks good.
2. Biodiesel, which I use whenever I can, is $3.97 here in Santa Rosa and at least $3.37 in southern Oregon, the same as petro diesel, when I was there a week ago. That makes $2.85 look even better.

But I didn't buy a Mercedes to save money. I could have bought a lot of RUG for the $5900 I paid for my Benz. I bought the diesel so I could make a small contribution to reducing our dependence on imported oil, by using biodiesel. Everyone can't do that, yet. I hope to see wider availability nationwide in the next few years. It's not a panacea but it's better than nothing.

Jeremy

my dad is a trucker and it costs him with the company fuel card 800$ to fill up both 125 gallon tanks... truckers dont care about the price the price is offloaded on us, i have been saying for years there should be a private use non commercial fuel and a commercial grade fuel and off road fuel... then all would be happy

Beef is I've got one car that I use the RUG/WVO blend in and then I've got 3 other diesels that I have to buy from the pump to keep them fed.

And with the colder weather at our doorstep my WVO blending days are coming to a halt. Did the freezer test and got peanut butter. Tested blend was 1 gal. RUG/6oz. cetane boost and antigel/startron and then about 4 gallons WVO. Been told it is tallow causing the peanut butter.
Kinda off the subject but is that correct? Is it tallow?Oh....am running a 1 tank unheated system. Never have blended diesel in with the WVO blend. have been told wax can form???
Sorry...I know some of you are sick of WVO talk. I would rather ask than experiment.;)

Cheers,

Bill

Its been lowering here in the SF bay area. Diesel was priced at $3.19 for the longest time and RUG was at $2.99. Now diesel is the same at the shell and chevron $2.99/gal same as gas. ULSD too!

Recently ive been able to afford paying for ULSD, I get a $50 cash bonus at my work. $50 fills the tank and lasts me 2 weeks....i get paid every two weeks :D

The numbers work out great for me!

last issue of Mercedes Classics had an article on a mercedes with a gassifier .. the owner said he has to clean the gassifier soot bag out every 80 miles or something.. it was in the last issue or the one before it.. cant rember sorry

I've been blending for 3+ years. The last 1 to 1 1/2 yrs I have been blending with diesel (in a 617 and now a 602) I run 50/50 until temps start getting cold then I add 1 gal of RUG to 10gal of blend(along with cetane boost,etc...). Never have even plugged a filter! Of course my 602 has the heated fuel option, how much it helps I don't know? I also have very clean oil filtered to at least 1 micron. Is your truck IDI or DI?

If your blending 80/20 with RUG and it's clumping up, it's an oil quality issue.
You may want to winterize your oil before you use it.

I think what we are talking about is the price of diesel relative to the price of gasoline. As sulfur is an additive to diesel and not a byproduct of refining, ULSD should not cost more.

For 60 years diesel was cheaper than gasoline. It's the difference in price that is my beef here. If gas $3/diesel $3, fine. it's gas $3 diesel $4 which makes no sense, seeing as in the 1960s diesel was 1/2 the price of gas. We're using less heating oil than we used to, so I want an explanation other than greed.

Otherwise I will get a 1 micron filter and sell a bunch of trans fluid changes, and burn the used ATF. I'm not kidding.

Well you'll get no argument from me. I think it's mostly a B.S. market, like buying diamonds. But If you read the link I provivded, you can get the industry mumbo jumbo. Trust me it's going to go up, just look at the trend, and it has nothing to do with B.S. supply and demand. BTW gasoline has had it's sulphur reduced also.

gasifier
 

I tried to make response earlier and it does not seem to have come thru.

re: gasifier. This system was used to run race cars. It is still being designed and used worldwide to generate electricity.

The Dept of Agriculture has reference to the design history and function for this powerplant.

pmari,

Truck is a DI.

I've also been running the RUG blend over the summer. Have not filtered to 1 micron. Maybe thats my problem. I've been settling for weeks then filtering through a bed sheet folded 4 x. Did the freezer test and, like I said, got peanut butter.I've had clogged tank screen, clogged prefilter and clogged spin on filter. Then the return lines that are on the injectors started leaking profusely. You can also see in the prefilter little particles of rubber fuel line so I need to change my fuel lines to viton. Then there is the collection pump issues. Have bought a couple pumps. The mechanical one worked 3 or 4 times before it just plain quit and the electric one which won't keep the prime even though I've got the backflow preventer. Driven maybe 5K miles after going through all that and now that cool weather is here I've quit using WVO. Sheesh. Can't win.

Rob the mod....correct. Being so worn out last night my brain wasn't working right when I was asked so whats the beef. You nailed it. Gas is dropping like a rock and diesel is hanging tough. I just do NOT get it. I grew up on diesel. Coming from a farm we had all diesel because diesel was so cheap. Been driving diesels since '84 when i bought a 6.2 Suburban. Diesel over the years was always way cheaper than gas. Now, heres a question that I've asked many, many times and have never gotten an answer to. In '97 gas was $1.25 and diesel was .82 then, by the end of that summer, diesel was suddenly the same price as gas. What the heck happened??? It just is not right that diesel should be higher than RUG let alone premium. After all diesel is the first thing you come to in the refining process. Then you put additives and more refining to get gas. So if there's such a shortage of diesel there should be a low supply of gas which there doesn't seem to be. If there was a low supply the oil companies would impose rationing. Its been done many times before. Jacking the price doesn't make people slow down or shorten/combine trips. They won't do that unless forced. So supply doesn't justify the high cost. And you can't tell me that demand has dropped for gas. The traffic is just as thick as it ever was. 4 a.m. on I-95 today there was plenty of traffic!

Bottom line is I am dead dog tired of getting the pee gouged out of me and would like to find some way to force the oil companies to rethink their pricing. They're playing games with us and I am not one to sit back and take it. But, looks like thats what I'll have to do along with everybody else. Man this irks the hell outta me. Irks me enough that I am going to keep pushing and trying/experimenting with WVO even though I've had a ton of problems with that! There has got to be a way around these high fuel costs that don't make a lick of sense and somehow I"ll find it. I'm a persistent-wife calls it hardheaded- old cuss that just won't lay down for anybody.

Cheers,

Bill

Diesel prices vary widely around here.....
 

Folks,

I live in the wilds of West Virginia, and if you are near an Interstate the prices yesterday were 2.95 - 3.00 / gal......but the Exxon Station on old Rt 50 was 2.55.......I think folks are getting soaked by the individual stations that are close to the more well traveled areas......

Also, I can get off road (red) diesel at 2 locations within 15 miles of here.....but have to travel another 5 - 10 miles to get the on road (greenish) stuff.....

So far I have not seen the newest version, Ultra Low Sulphur stuff yet.....going to the races in Dover next week...will see what's happinin' in the real world on that trip......

SB

Shorebilly,

You'll see ULSD on that trip. Funny thing though that here in Pa. diesel is $2.85 or so but you'll find it in Md. for $2.69 and most likely less now.

have a great time at Dover. Thats a real nice track/facilities they have there. We're not too far from I-95. Stop by if you get the chance.

Cheers,

Bill

This topic comes up every time the price of diesel climbs. Reality is that a gasser version of our MB's gets pretty terrible mileage compared to ours. I am guessing that there would have to be better than a dollar difference before the gasser starts pulling even with costs. So how do you fight it?

1 Blending-get your hands on some clean WVO and filter to 1 micron pour in tank up to 30%WVO with petrodiesel to lower your costs. I have been blending in my work truck like this all summer and it has worked very well. No issues so far and no plugged filters.

2 Make your own-build or buy a biodiesel processor and make your own fuel. Sure, its a PITA. What do you expect? There is no free lunch.

3 Purchase a VW TDI-they easily get 48mpg and IMHO are a more solid car than the other econo japanese cars that get close to their mileage.

4 Buy a Prius-I hate the F*#%ing things but some people love them and while they may not get the mileage advertized in the real world they do pretty well.

5 Buy a used econo beater-many japanese cars will easily get 30+mpg. But do you want to be seen in one? If you purchase it as a second car remember that the cost to own, maintain, insure, etc. can often offset any gains in mpg.

To me the best possible thing about diesel is their ability to burn many different fuels. Our old MB's and other diesels as well can burn kerosese, used oil, used atf, WVO, biodiesel, etc. Sure, there can be some difficulty in using alternative fuels but at least you have a choice. What choice do you have if all of a sudden gasoline is $5 a gallon? How about $10 a gallon? Diesels are true multifuel engines. RT

Yes MB did this during the war when fuel was simply not availible for the general public. It was a horrible system that people dumped as fast as they could. They burned coal which was a mess, and it took forever to raise the temp to get the wood to out gas. Range was like 50 miles or something like that. Why not a steam engine then?:D


Compared to what I spend on other things fuel is cheap!:D

I'm just a bit disapointed that my car gets about the same mileage as say a 330I. The 330I has like 100hp on me to.:rolleyes: The whole point of buying a diesel is to be able to save fuel money, it just doesn't work that way in practice it seems.

MB's cost a fortune to run unless you drive them into the ground.

Dude, that SDL is pushing a bit more weight than those 330I's

Anyone even thinking about burning wood or coal in a vehicle should first attempt to heat their home with wood first....then coal!!! My backup heat is wood/coal fired......one winter a few years ago, when my "free" Natural Gas was shut down because a local compressor station had an explosion that damaged some stuff......no gas for me, for 45 days or so.....I learned that wood requires way more volume per BTU than coal.......although I can cut and split all of the hardwood that I want, or will ever need on my land.....it is far easier to buy a ton of coal....and that llasts me several years.....

If you must use a gassifier......coal is the way to go.....regardless of the mess......

SB

Friend of Coal

What to do about rediculous diesel prices?

Just fill up and forget that you just spend $62 to fill up your CAR! :eek:

the private use of diesel (us daily drivers) is small compared to the amount of commercial users, (big rigs, contractors, fleets) .. the oil companys view is, well if we can gouge the hell out of the commercial users they can offest the cost by pushing prices up, and so will we, screw the little guy... i bought a diesel because i do rember the days of 80 cent diesel and when i got my 300D it was still cheaper than gasy by 75 cents.. now is a fcukn shame...