No start W210 E300tdt - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

per eriksson · #1 10-05-2006, 02:12 PM

Parked the car in the garage a while ago and the battery got drained because I played the radio too much.
Hooked a charger up and let it sit for a while and now it cranks but no more.
It glows and cranks just fine but it doesnt' start.

Cracked an injector line open but it is bone dry, no fuel coming out at all when cranking.
Tank is 1/2 full.

Where do I start looking?
Can I pull fault codes from ECM?

TMAllison · #2 10-05-2006, 02:24 PM

Sounds as if it has set for a couple of months?

Check for air in the plastic fuel lines after cranking starter motor for 30 seconds.

Is possible that after sitting some o-rings have dried out.

If bubbles are present will generally come from fuel line, pre-filter or shutoff solenoid o-rings or fuel filter seal ring. Solution is to change out the fuel lines and other o-rings.

A leak from the IP delivery valve seals is also possible. A leak there will generally result in a fuel leak being visible.

per eriksson · #3 10-05-2006, 02:59 PM

About a week and a half.
I'll try some more tomorrow but it somehow feels like it is something electrical error

God, I hate that they were to cheap to put a manual priming pump on it.

TMAllison · #4 10-05-2006, 03:35 PM

Is the check engine light on? If so pull the codes with a scanner and post them.

For priming you want to crank manually for 20-30 secs at a time for 3 tries and then let the starter sit 5 minutes to cool off before trying again.

If it soulds like it is catching, keep cranking another second or two to be certain it is running belfore you let off the key or you will start the cycle all over again.

If electrical it could be the shutoff solenoid, K40 relay or glow plug relay, but, there ought to be codes present.

It may simply be that with a weak battery that your glow is not a good as you think it is.

Because of the darn intake manifold, even if it did have a manual primer pump on the IP you'd have to be a contortionist to use it.

deltajetfixer · #5 10-05-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMAllison

For priming you want to crank manually for 20-30 secs at a time for 3 tries and then let the starter sit 5 minutes to cool off before trying again.

Just a "Heads Up", the Owner's Manual says you can crank up to 40 seconds at a time but doesn't specify a cool-down time

I think I'd wait 5 minutes at least between single cranking attempts. If it were mine (as it was when I replaced all the IP o-rings) I'd wait 10.

Just my opinion.

MB is sure "proud" of their starters!

TMAllison · #6 10-05-2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltajetfixer

Just a "Heads Up", the Owner's Manual says you can crank up to 40 seconds at a time but doesn't specify a cool-down time

I think I'd wait 5 minutes at least between single cranking attempts. If it were mine (as it was when I replaced all the IP o-rings) I'd wait 10.

Just my opinion.

MB is sure "proud" of their starters!

A respected Tech on the Tech Forum suggested the 20-30 sec crank with a cool down period after 3 tries. HIS logic was to keep at it long enough to get the air through the IP without losing the ground you've gained toward prime by waiting too long in between attempts. I've done that procedure in that way more times than I really care to admit during fuel line and filter changes, etc.

When THAT person suggests I do something a certain way I don't normally question HIS instructions.

Yes, MB is proud of those starters, AND a lot of other parts too. Fortunately, they do seem to last a long time.

aklim · #7 10-05-2006, 05:35 PM

Take off the filter and fill it up with diesel and try that cranking routine

deltajetfixer · #8 10-05-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMAllison

A respected Tech on the Tech Forum suggested the 20-30 sec crank with a cool down period after 3 tries. HIS logic was to keep at it long enough to get the air through the IP without losing the ground you've gained toward prime by waiting too long in between attempts. I've done that procedure in that way more times than I really care to admit during fuel line and filter changes, etc.

When THAT person suggests I do something a certain way I don't normally question HIS instructions.

Yes, MB is proud of those starters, AND a lot of other parts too. Fortunately, they do seem to last a long time.

There is certainly a wealth of experience on the board. If something works for you and produces results you like, then by all means keep doing it.

I just have a wee bit of a problem understanding the statements, "...keep at it long enough to get the air through the IP without losing the ground you've gained toward prime by waiting too long in between attempts. I've done that procedure in that way more times than I really care to admit during fuel line and filter changes."

No disrespect intended to you or the Tech but how do you lose ground in between attempts...unless you have a leak? When you've replaced your fuel lines and filters you have new seals, right?

Would've been nice had they not gotten rid of a manual priming pump...or... the torque converter drain plug, the coolant bleed bolt on the head , etc!

TMAllison · #9 10-05-2006, 11:56 PM

Deltajetfixer- My first expiriences were with air leaks in fuel lines, a bad delivery valve seal and a faulty shut off valve all at teh same time. Trust me, I've dealt with air.

In my expirience then and since, if I dont crank long enough or if I stop the cycle after only one 30 sec crank, small bubbles being forced through the IP stop part way down and float back up to form a new larger bubble. This is what was meant by my statement of "loosing ground" as big air pockets are MUCH harder to break up and push through than are small frothy bubbles suspended within the fuel. We all know that all the air has to get pushed through, hence the need to have a strong battery and to keep going a couple times in a row to accomplish that task. On my car, the same occurs if the fuel filter was not filled or was only partially filled during replacement. One crank for 30-40 secs just won't do the job. A couple in a row is usually required for me.

Not sure I understand your point about new seals. When replacing fuel lines, unless you've pre-filled them somehow when installed you've introduced a lot of air in each new fuel line.

No offense taken and none offered.

Thanks,

deltajetfixer · #10 10-06-2006, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMAllison

Deltajetfixer- My first expiriences were with air leaks in fuel lines, a bad delivery valve seal and a faulty shut off valve all at teh same time. Trust me, I've dealt with air.

In my expirience then and since, if I dont crank long enough or if I stop the cycle after only one 30 sec crank, small bubbles being forced through the IP stop part way down and float back up to form a new larger bubble. This is what was meant by my statement of "loosing ground" as big air pockets are MUCH harder to break up and push through than are small frothy bubbles suspended within the fuel. We all know that all the air has to get pushed through, hence the need to have a strong battery and to keep going a couple times in a row to accomplish that task. On my car, the same occurs if the fuel filter was not filled or was only partially filled during replacement. One crank for 30-40 secs just won't do the job. A couple in a row is usually required for me.

Not sure I understand your point about new seals. When replacing fuel lines, unless you've pre-filled them somehow when installed you've introduced a lot of air in each new fuel line.

No offense taken and none offered.

Thanks,

I agree, one crank for 30-40 seconds won't do the job. I think I average around three 40 second cranks when I lose my prime due to replacing things.

My point, I guess, is that if it's going to take three,four, or even five 30-40 second cranks, assuming you have no leaks (this is where the new seals qualifier was added), you don't have to perform them in rapid-fire succession.

Remember that I'm just trying to protect the starter from heat damage here.

You should be able to crank for one cycle, go do something else for a while, come back and crank again, even 24 hours later. Your total cranking time is going to be dependant on the volume of air in the line compared to the displacement of the pump per pump stroke. In other words, if it's going to take 200 seconds of cranking to prime, with no leaks (new seals), assuming your starter was indestructible, you could prime all at once with one 200 second crank, or space it out with several crankings over a couple of minutes or hours or even days.

The statement, "...big air pockets are MUCH harder to break up and push through than are small frothy bubbles suspended within the fuel." , doesn't seem quite right as air is compressible and a big bubble is going to compress at the same rate as the small frothy ones. I don't see how one big bubble can sit there in a line and have all the others pass it by.

The only instance in which I can see cranking attempts with minimal wait times between them being beneficial is where a leak DOES exist, you ARE losing ground between attempts (leakdown), and you're just trying to get the car running to where you can drive it, park it and fix it.

During planned R&R of components where you'll lose the prime, I think cranking attempts, one right after the other, are unnecessary and pose a risk to the starter.

Again, the previous statements are just my opinion and I realize that your method works for you. Please don't take offense at them.

aklim · #11 10-06-2006, 09:01 AM

When we replaced the lines and filter with no fuel in it, we had to crank for 3 or 4 times at 20 seconds a time. Crank, wait, crank wait, crank......

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