GASP! NO! (insert explicative here!) 603 help - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Hit Man X · #1 11-21-2006, 07:34 AM

Well words lack me...

I pulled my SDLs IP out to reseal here a few days ago (waiting on a few parts to finish, should be today) and before I pulled it I put the motor at 0° per the balancer.

So, I come outside and find the car mostly down the driveway

My brother told me he tried to start it (!!!)

and then just rolled it as he needed the space to work.

Now I have no clue where the timing is at on the motor. I do have an A-B light to re time but am totally lost on where to start!

Should I rotate it back to 0°, install the IP and try to time it? What the heck do I have to do here?

Also, what's the torque spec on that bolt behind the vac pump to the IP?

jshadows · #2 11-21-2006, 09:05 AM

Assuming you still have tension in the chain (i.e. the IP gear is still in the loop) you need to pull valve cover so you can see when you're at 0 degrees at the cam AND the crank. 720 degrees of crank to get 360 at the cam.

I thought the IP removal was at 15 degrees ATDC, but if you took it out at 0, then i guess your IP should be at zero too. Install IP, and go to town with the A-B lights to make sure you're at 15 (or is it 14) degrees ATDC when both lights come on. Adjust per FSM accordingly.

I did this a few months ago, and worked fine. Just rolling the car down the driveway can move the engine so even before the car was turned over, probably already into a little pickle.

Hit Man X · #3 11-21-2006, 09:09 AM

Yes, the 360/180° out issue is what I was afraid of...

Lets say IP internals were moved, is there a way to set it back to zero?

dieselsteve · #4 11-21-2006, 09:21 AM

First veifiy what your specific IP timing is suppose to be for your model.

My 603.971 is 15 degrees ATDC. Rotate your engine to 15 ATDC.
Next set the IP where is it suppose to be. Here is how to:
1. on the left sied of the IP there is a 15 or 17 MM hex bolt. remove this.
2. Look inside and rotate the IP CW until you see a what alomot lloks like a screwdriver tip. center this in the hole. The IP is ready to go back in.

The IP rotates at 1/2 of crankshaft speed so it roates 1 revolution for every 2 times the crank rotates.

BTW MBZ makes a tool to hold this tip in place so you cannot rotate the IP. P/N 601 589 05 21 00
It was approx. $25 from my dealer. IT REALLY HELPS.
NOTE: remove the IP centering tool before roating the engine.

3. Insert the IP and place the drive gear back on and torque the LH bolt to spec.
4. Tighten/install the hyd tension back in.
5. Rotate the engine CW 1 or 2 times BY HAND, stop at 15 ATDC. remove the bolt on the IP and check that the tip is centered in the hole or insert the tool. If it is not, then remove the IP, insert the tool in the IP and reinsert the IP and verify it again.

I did this 2 weeks ago, I got it the second time. My theory is that the timing chain slack comes into play when the tensioner not installed/tighten.
I set the engine to 15 ATDC, inserted the IP, tightened the tensioner. I rotated it back to 15 ATDC. It ws off acouple of degrees. I then tried to adjust it to 15 by moving (rotating) the IP using the timing adjusting bolt. I ran it to the MAX limit and was still 1/2 degree off. So I rotated the engine to 15 ATDC, loosened the tensioner, removed the IP, inserted the tool and then reinstalled the IP with it centered in the adjustment range. I tighten the tensioner and roated it 1 and then 2 times. DEAD ON!! yea!

I did this on newly rebuilt it engine and it fired the first time!! RUNS great and fires imediately.

Let us know how you make out
Steve

jshadows · #5 11-21-2006, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hit Man X

Lets say IP internals were moved, is there a way to set it back to zero?

You can spin the IP to get it back. How to do that exactly I think is in the FSM and is beyond my experience. Might need to get engine at true 0 degrees and work from there with AB lights to spin IP so it lights up at 15.

I'll let the IP and timing experts chime in for the details

michael cole · #6 11-21-2006, 10:18 AM

the engine may not have moved at all.remember this car has a "slush box".i would assume your brother would have put the car in N before rolling

barry123400 · #7 11-21-2006, 11:25 AM

Michael, good thought but unfortunatly his brother tried to start it apparently. The only thought I have is to lock the pump with the built in device. Make sure the valves are both lobes up and balancer pulley is at whatever recomended static timing position and slide the pump in. Pump indicator slot is probably start of delivery for the first element on that pump. Someone else will clarify that. I do not own one of those pumps and have never timed one. All required information will be in service literature. Not really a true disaster. Far worse can and will happen with brothers. I remember when one identical twin brother was taking out his brothers girlfriend without telling her or him.

Not only was it a real timing problem but a war errupted over it between them. They were and are still identical in apperance.

rrgrassi · #8 11-21-2006, 11:31 AM

What a PITA! Kill the brother!!!

I had a friend who encountered a run away gasser. He was doing carb work and had disconnected the carb return springs, when his brother though it would be funny to try and start the car...

He pulled the coil wire, and then proceeded to chase down the now run away brother. Ever since then, he either pulled the coil wire or disconnected the battery.

I hope everything lines up for you!

riethoven · #9 11-21-2006, 11:47 AM

Make your brother buy you the IP locking tool from the dealer.

Don't forget to pull it out before you rotate the pump or you can cause internal damage to the pump by bending the alignment tab.

jshadows · #10 11-21-2006, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael cole

the engine may not have moved at all.remember this car has a "slush box".i would assume your brother would have put the car in N before rolling

Not true. Even in Neutral the engine may move. It's less likely with the injectors in and the head attached, but I can tell you from experience that if you remove the compression the engine can and will turn even when rolled in N.

I thought that was the case too and learned the hard way that it wasn't.

BenzDiesel · #11 11-22-2006, 12:20 AM

was near none existent in a short and straight forward and easily understandable way about three years ago, when his page on timing a 603 would have told me what to do and if I followed the directions; I could have gotten my car re-timed in about three hours or less. Anyway, dieselsteve's car is running and has a rebuilt 603 3.5. I know from experience that if that timing isn't near almost correct, then the car will not start and run properly.

BenzDiesel

sixto · #12 11-22-2006, 01:29 AM

1) If the crank was at TDC, you don't know if it's #1 TDC or #6 TDC.

2) If he hit the starter with the IP out then the cam did not turn in sync with the crank!!! I'd be more concerned about that than getting the IP back in time.

Sixto
93 300SD

sixto · #13 11-22-2006, 01:32 AM

3) I would not rotate the crank pulley with the IP out. Safest thing to do before turning the crank further is pull the cam. Then set the crank to TDC and refit the cam.

Sixto
93 300SD

sixto · #14 11-22-2006, 01:47 AM

Gus at Pacific FI says you can wrap a towel around the splines and use channel locking pliers or something like that to get the lug to show in the port. You can probably spin the IP by hand with a towel wrapped around the splines.

Sixto
93 300SD

stcbenz83 · #15 11-22-2006, 02:30 AM

dude, i would kill your brother. tell him he ruined your engine and now he needs to have a newone installed

everyone knows better than to even think of touching my 240.