Ball Joint Nightmare - chapter 2
 

Well I am having the same problem on the drivers side as I did on the passengers, only worse. The tapered ball joint shaft will not come out of the lower control arm. I even broke the giant autozone type c clamp joint puller - cracked right through. I have pounded on the shaft with a sledge hammer for hours, carving 1/4" deep impression in my concrete garage floor with the jack stand supporting the lower control arm while I beat on it. I was thinking about packing the joint/arm in Dry Ice to try and shrink the joint enough to free it up - Do you think the dry ice would weaken the control arm and cause issues later on down the road?

I'm not sure what you tried in Chapter 1, but it sounds like you need to put some heat on it. Have you tried this? Are you going to end up replacing the joints. I seriously doubt that dry ice will hurt anything though. Or really do anything for that matter.

I have heated the arm with a propane torch, then hit the shaft with liquid wrench trying to flash cool it. Like the other side, I cut through the ball of the joint with a sawzall to get the spindle off and make room. All I have to do is get the tapered portion of the joint out of the lower control arm. Yeah, thats all. Right.

In your previous thread (Chapter 1), you said that you broke the "recommended tool from NAPA." Which tool was that?

Wow, sounds like an ordeal. Quickly off the top of my head and not seeing it, I would think that propane may not burn hot enough (you might try MAPP gas if your propane torch can use that). However, I think the proper way to heat it is too heat one side of the control arm right where the spindle is (I don't think you will overheat it with propane) and then immediately hit it with a very large hammer (this may be tough to do at weird angles to you could try using a long bar pivoted right near the joint to pop it off?) Don't spray it with liquid wrench though.

I sheared the pin in this one - I rigged it to work with another pin.

This one I cracked right though the bent arm

Sometimes loading the stud down with a puller and just letting it sit is helpful. Also, striking the eye of the control arm with medium sized hammer (while the stud is heavily loaded) can also break things loose. The idea is not to beat the stud out of the control arm, but to send a "deforming" shock wave through the eye so that it lets go of the stud. Another variation is to strike the eye on opposite sides at the same with a pair of hammers. Strike the eye perpendicular to the stud. (The idea is to deliver a sharp, ringing blow; not necessarily a hard blow.) Repeated strikes are usually required. And consider the trajectory of parts and tools when things break loose!!!

I have had good luck with this tool, which carries a lifetime guarantee:
http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=SER&PartNumber=3916&Description=Ball+Joint+Separator

It sounds like you cut the shaft of the ball joint to separate the lower control arm from the steering knuckle, and now you are trying to remove the piece from the knuckle, right? Tangofox007 has the right idea, put some force on it, like a C-clamp, soak it with PB, and let it sit, overnight if you have to. Keep pressure on it and then tap with hammer all around. Make sure when you clamp it you are leaving room for the stud to move and come out. Should pop out. With the other end use a drill and drill holes all around the bottom, take a cold chiesel and connect holes, pop out that piece, drive bottom of ball joint out. Now take your sawzall and carefully cut into what is left of the ball joint in the LCA. Do this in 2-3 places use cold chiesel and knock out the pieces. Clean up the hole and press in new ball joint. Good Luck.

This is the best technique I have found. It typically takes no more than 4 or 5 blows to get it loose.

The W123 is backwards from most cars. The base of the lower ball joint is press fit in the steering knuckle; the tapered stud fits in the control arm.

I believe the best technique is not to cut the balljoint. While it is still in one piece a long pry bar can be utilized to provide separating force while the control arm is struck with a large hammer or drift.

waa!!! I have the bedeviled ball joint sitting on my desk... You guys are scaring me...

Nasty Ball Joint
 

Why not take the part ... since it is out of the car ... to a machine shop & get them to press it out with a big press?

Are you sure you're pounding in the correct direction?

Is the control arm off the car? Doesn't sound like it, given the mention of the control arm being supported by a jack stand.

tangofox007

"Sometimes loading the stud down with a puller and just letting it sit is helpful. Also, striking the eye of the control arm with medium sized hammer (while the stud is heavily loaded) can also break things loose. The idea is not to beat the stud out of the control arm, but to send a "deforming" shock wave through the eye so that it lets go of the stud. Another variation is to strike the eye on opposite sides at the same with a pair of hammers. Strike the eye perpendicular to the stud. (The idea is to deliver a sharp, ringing blow; not necessarily a hard blow.) Repeated strikes are usually required."
In 36 years of fooling with cars I've never owned a stud puller, or tierod breaker, or whatever you call it. Instead I rely entirely on hammering the studs out pretty much exactly as described above. I just loosen the nut (don't take it all the way off, so that the part can't jump too far when it comes loose.) dolly-up the back of the knuckle with a sledge hammer, and hit the front with ringing blows with a good-sized hammer. How good sized? Depends on the size of the knuckle. On a car, maybe 20 oz. to 2 Lbs.
You know you have the dolly located right when it bounces off the part when you strike it the front of the part with your other hammer, and the hammer bounces back too.
The dolly has two objects: 1) it prevents the force of impact from travelling to the next joint, where it may do damage, and 2), much more important, it confines the force of the blow within the part. Think of a wave travelling across a swimming pool, bouncing off the far wall, and coming back to you. The dolly, held tight against the part, is the "far wall" that these waves of force bounce against.
I start with fairly light blows, slowly increasing force until the knuckle pops apart. The force and resonance literally stretches the knuckle for an instant, loosening the stud and allowing it to slip down.
I learned this approach from an old-fashioned blacksmith machinery repair guy. He showed me how on a good anvil, there's enough resonance so that the forging hammer literally bounces back to where you started the swing. The only muscular force that you exert (once you've got the knack) is accelerating the hammer back down again.
Aint physics grand?

Yep. I'd put this procedure right up there with turning water into wine.
If you've done it once, you'll do it again just to see the magic at work.
What is the root of the 'dolly-up' phrase?

I had one of those Harbor Freight ball joint tools. Talk about crap. The cup didn't quiet fit and prevented the ball joint from coming out. It took bending the C clamp to realize this. My friend and I had to hold the spindle in a vice and pound it out with an old socket and a piece of wood. I cracked the screw putting the new ones in.

In my opinion these things aren't safe.

Diy
 

Here is how you apply force to the union, once the ball joint nut is off.

Hold one five pound sledge against the static side of the lower control arm.

Pound on the opposite side of the lower control arm, reverse hammer positions every ten strokes.

Every stroke needs to apply maximum possible force.

Please click on the attached picture to enlarge, it shows how and where to hit the lower control arm.

exactamente!
 

whunter uses the same technique I have always had success with. Never bothered with those clamp removers. The sharp blow to the side distorts the holding taper, breaking the bond, squeezing out the ball joint pin. BIG ball peen; I find a 16 oz fine, but then, I'd love a bigger one! :rolleyes:

It may be hard to hit, so seo's idea of using an intermediary piece to ensure perfect strikes makes sense.

If you have to, use the clamp setup, tighten it up nicely, THEN try a few strikes per whunter.

If that does not work, then we are talking acetylene. :cool:

Holding the sledgehammer opposite the side of the joint I was striking did the trick. It's finally out. This technique required only about 15 minutes - in addition to the many hours already spent trying in vain to pound it out from the top. Thanks to everyone!

ok you press supporters, think of it like this... if you put enough pressure on the bolt to get it out, the bolt is bound to compress... if it gets shorter, it's gonna get wider, if it gets wider, it aint gonna come out.
the Hammer method will work. SOOOO SIMPLE!...
John

I got the tapered ball joint shafts on tie rods and control arms of my MB300SD with a pickle fork. You hammer the wedged pickle fork between the ball joint and the control arm you want to separate. Use a sledge hammer. I used a small sledge. On the upper control arm I hammered it all the way in, but no luck. So I jumped up and down on the end on the pickle fork, and that did it. Sledge, and leverage! It destroys the rubber boots on the joints.

A customer at Sears recommended it, and recommended the larger pickle fork.

:EDIT: removed bad links

Digging up old graves eh? They are referring to pressing the bj out of the LCA. Completely different ball park. One I would not do again without dry ice.

Definitely a different ball park on this ball joint. The 123, and 126 LCA ball joint is a pain in the rear.
I tried to get at it with a large pickle fork when I first did one, and found that the back side of the spindle blocked any chance of getting the fork in far enough.

A loosened nut, a little tension with a clamp, and a few good raps with a hand sledge, and out it fell.

Amazing how much you can learn from these guys, and from the crusty old coot of a mechanic you might be lucky enough to find and learn from!

Sure wish I would have read this before I started out in my lower ball joint debacle. I only read the shop manual (who has their tools?)

Without this info I tried everything I could to get the lower ball joint out. In the end we had to heat the ball joint itself up and then smack it out with the knuckle off. This after having to cut the ball joint stud off with a grinder as I could not get the stud out of the lower control arm. Then with the extra room I was able to smack the remaining stud down and out.

I thought that was the going to be the end of the hard part. Installation was even worse. As my ball joint press had no hope of working in the tight space I put the new ball joint in the freezer over night and slow heated the whole knuckle up on a woodstove in the morning. Ideally the two pieces were supposed to slide together nicely. Not a chance. With only one shot at it as the joint heated and the knuckle cooled it was a bust.

I then went and sought advice at a local shop that specializes in MBs. The owner used to work at Mercedes and said when he was there a mechanic broke their press and they never bought a new one. They would use a punch on the rim of the joint and try and drive it in by alternating blows on opposite sides. So off home I went to try this tactic.

After about two blows the rim began to badly deform and the joint wasn't going any further in. Despite repeated efforts there was no further movement and the joint was getting ugly fast.

The next try was to put the arm back into the car and try load the joint by jacking up underneath it and lifting the car. With the joint loaded and me beating on it there was still no measureable movement into the socket.

By now running out if ideas and patience long since gone I realized that while I could not get my press onto the ball joint by itself I could get the press onto the lower control arm around the ball joint stud and below the ball joint on the steering knuckle. With significant force applied by the press I would then smack the ball joint rim, with a punch, down into the knuckle. This finally was the key. The joint moved in steps and I would retighten the press and smack the joint rim downward. Success at long last as the joint bottomed in the knuckle.

When I put the press back into it's premolded box it did not want to go. I had put enough pressure on it to open up the "C" and deform it.

I think I may wait a while before I attempt the other side...

Ball Joints Differences and Tolerances
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/275392-ball-joints-differances-tolerances-123-a.html

This is how I got my Ball Joint back in. Some members have don the same but used an Pneumatic Impact wrench to do the turning of the Bolt on the C Press.
It requires removing the Ball Joint Boot and would be better if there was a washer between the C Press and the Ball Joint (see the Red Arrow in pic 1).
After the Ball Joint started to stick out of the bottom I had to use the Pipe I had enlarged to 2 inches ID to press it downt further.
It might be that one of the Tubes that comes with the C Press might have worked; but the Pipe was on the Counter from another project so I used that.

Dry ice people. The freezer wont do the trick. Think you had problems? Mine were welded in!!!!

on my 85,after pounding the eye for a while with a rather large hammer(this usually always works) i did have to resort to using the air chisel with a flat tip on it in that same area.that seems to work well..........:D

Use the press as shown in the prev post. Tighten, tap with gentle hammer blows to relieve pressure, tighten, tap... repeat until seated.

I've replaced many and never had an issue with any of 'em this way.

I forgot to mention that the C Press in the pic is mine but you can rent one from Autozone and if you return it; it is a free rental.
However, besure to inspect the upper part of the press as the one at the local Autozone was a little buggered up. Also the Autozone press (made by OEM) seemed to be better made.

Below is how I removed the Ball Joint from the Control Arm with no Press. You have to back off the Ball Joint Nut enough so that it is above the Threaded Shaft on the Ball Joint. This way ruins the Nut so if you were planning to reuse the Joint you will need a new nut.
Any way you hit the Nut with a 2 pound or more hammer.

If you are not worried about the Ball Joint you can heat the end of the arm but that will burn up the Boot.

Since doing the above just last week I have bought a Ball Joint Press that I hope will work as I need to replace the Boot on the other side.
Also I am thinking to pull a Steering Knuckle at the Junk Yard and I would not be able to beat off the Ball Joint there.

Tried that too but had to resort to cutting the stud then hammering out the remainder. I needed the space to swing the 2 lb hammer.

I used a large pickle fork to get the joint off the control arm. Had to grind down one of the forks cause it was hitting the inside of the steering knuckle. A few really good whacks with a 5lb sledgehammer and it popped right off.
Some people say hitting the side of the steering knuckle pops it out.

I used the same autozone press. Worked great.

Danny

Here are some posts that might help you:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/267618-advanced-auto-ball-joint-press-tool.html?highlight=ball+joint+press

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/179284-write-up-ball-joints-lower-control-arm-bushings-tool-review-pics.html?highlight=ball+joint+tool

REALLY, don't hit the nut... just don't. it's a tapered fit, and hitting the nut will distort the shaft and cause binding. use a press, or hit the eye with two hammers described at the beginning of the thread by whunter.

I have done it a bunch of times times on my Mercedes and a whole bunch more on other jobs at the various places I worked at (Bosses do not like to buy Special Tools).
I did when I removed my Lower Control Arms the first time and although the Bores in my Lower Control Arms were oversized due to rust I had to get the car on the road and installed the new LCA Bushings.
I did it again when I got some good used LCAs and had to remove the old ones and change it.
And, I did it last week when I changed the Boot on one.
And if my new Tool does not work I will have to do it again to change the boot on the other side.
So I have beat on the same Ball Joints abunch of times to get them out and nothing except the nut has distorted.
But, I admit it is a desperate act.

If you back the nut out enough the Nut and the threads take the Impact. The Hammer does not make contact with the Shaft. Obviously you have to hit it straight and a heavy slow moving Hammer is less likely to bend than a light fast moving Hammer.
Because the Shaft is tapered that is why it works; when it releases it releases completely.
I would like to try that Double Hammer Method but I do not think I could do it by myself (just to see if it works) and I don't think I could get my Wife to hold the other Hammer for me. Just the thought if the slightest physical pain sends my Wife running.

I have found backing off the nut above the stud threads (so it can be unscrewed later) always work to pop the tapers from each other IF you have it well supported on the bottom.

Here's another way to knock the lower ball joint out. I've knocked one out this way with ease. I'll be knocking another one out soon and hope it will be just as easy.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/321615-red-neck-lower-ball-joint-removal.html

If you are speaking of the Lower Ball Joint that is exactly what I did. If you notice in the Pic the Nut is backed off.

However, that ruins the Nut so you need to know where you are getting a new Nut before you start.
In my case there is an Industrial Hardware Store not 1 mile away that had another nut.
In the pic hit in the direction of the down ward arrow.
The good news is that I bought bunch of used Mercedes Tools and one of them was the Lower Ball Joint Press; so I won't be beating any joints of any more.