Marketing Diesel Power - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Knightrider966 · #31 12-15-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rashakor

Yes in population the market is big enough. But Hollywood is in California... And Dicaprio and Ahnuld are California residents. You gotta need star power to convince the heartland...

The Heartland is where most of the Biodiesel stations are thanks to Willie Nelson!!! They don't need convincing, they already know and there are diesels being sold there! Jeep Liberty sold at least twice as many Jeeps because of the buying power of the Midwest! Those farmers make and want soybean diesel!

rwthomas1 · #32 12-15-2006, 05:28 PM

Dodge starts the pickup truck diesel ball rolling with the Cummins diesel and it catches on with the pickup crowd, and soon to follow was Ford using an International 6.9 diesel. Now, these did not catch on as much purely because of the low fuel cost. After a while, the longevity did catch on , and the fuel economy was also a plus. One other bad point during that same time, most diesel fueling stations were of the 'truck stop' variety, which did not appeal to the general public.

The Ford 6.9 trucks were introduced in 85 or 86? Dodge didn't put the Cummins in their truck until 89 and it was a bit of a dud unless you towed hard and heavy. The exhaust turbine housing was a bit too large, sized for bigger vehicles and not for around town in a pickup. What really set off the diesel wars is the ever larger RV trailers being offered. No one even considered a 12-15K trailer back in the early 80's. There wasn't anything that would pull them. Dodge did kick that bit off, as ugly as the pre-94 Dodge, but that Cummins loved to pull.

RT

aklim · #33 12-15-2006, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by invol

I have an informal boycott of Ford and GM for being so stupid in their car making decisions. ESPECIALLY when they have diesels in other countries that they sell vehicles in. They must think that North Americans (yes, Canadians too) are idiots. Yes, I know most other car manufacturers don't offer diesels here either. But those other companies aren't beating their marketing chests saying that they are USA patriotic and they sell the best cars for the US simply because they are USA-based companies. I expect those foreign car companies to save their best cars for their domestic markets. Ford and GM sell Americans the worst cars that they design... designs that would be laughed at anywhere else in the world. :endrant:

Every company claims all sorts of good things. If you are going to boycott a company for that, you are going to have to write down on a sheet of paper who you will deal with. It will be a short list. You expect too much of a company. They don't save their best cars for anyone. If they figure they can sell it in Timbukthree, you bet they will sell it there. Ever met a company that will tell you that they will sell whatever they can because it is all about the money and screw you and the horse you rode in on if you don't like it? I haven't. I would love to since it would be refreshing but not real.

aklim · #34 12-15-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by compress ignite

Engine manufactured by old line Italian marine diesel maker V.M. Motori
(owned by Mercedes) [president of V.M.Motori is Roger Penske] Do you
think Roger would make ANYTHING but a high performance diesel?

Depending on the market he is pandering to, he might.

aklim · #35 12-15-2006, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

There currantly is no market for diesel passanger cars. But a market could be created with enough money. Ford is bleeding red ink, they are in no position to do this.

I suspect the numbers are not there to support the capital outlay that such a move would require. Or no company wants to be the ones paying for it, its cheaper to ride on anothers heals.

Mercedes is making a go of it yes, but they are a high end brand and are quite happy to sell only a few thousand of a unit per year. Toyota would want to sell 1M. VW only imports a few that are swallowed up by there loyal following. Toyota for example has no reason to do this, they are selling Camrys for example with the gas engines as fast as they can build them.

As long as fuel remians pretty cheap it doesn't make sense to spend billions creating a market for diesel passanger cars. In a couple years this will probably change.

I would love to see some internal studies these companies have done on this issue.

All of this makes sense if we look at it from afar. How about this. Gas goes for 2.25 and diesel goes for 2.75. Any mileage you get from diesel is swallowed up by the cost.

aklim · #36 12-15-2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan_the_welder

Except most of the diesels sold in the US are passenger cars. They just happen to look like full size pickups.

For real, driving to work and back and once a month towing a trailer and opposed to the weekly "full load" in the bed of beer and groceries pickup trucks in the US are passenger vehicles.

If they didn't have need to tow something big, why would they buy diesel? If I didn't have to tow, give me a reason to buy diesel. Mileage? Sure. How about cost? Diesel costs more than gas and has it's own issues. Diesel is not the fix all without a price tag.

Yes, I use my Excursion as a grocery getter and 2nd car. However, are you willing to pay the difference for me to get a smaller car and have a tow vehicle? I do tow an RV a few times a year and a trailer with 2 ATVs on it. If I were to buy another car for my daily driver and grocery getter, dog hauler (3 larger dogs) etc, etc, I would need to pay more insurance, more for storage of the vehicles, and the list goes on. So, will I recoup my investment in getting an fuel efficient car and a tow vehicle for this once a month towing activity you speak of?

aklim · #37 12-15-2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by probear

Too bad, just think of the fuel savings that would have been realized if 25% of the light truck, SUV market would have been diesel.

Diesel has been more expensive than gas for the last few years. So from a fuel savings point, you might be right but from a wallet standpoint, maybe not.

Hatterasguy · #38 12-15-2006, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

All of this makes sense if we look at it from afar. How about this. Gas goes for 2.25 and diesel goes for 2.75. Any mileage you get from diesel is swallowed up by the cost.

Thats why I would love to see some economic studies on this. Would people buy a diesel if the cost of fuel was higher than gas, and real world would eat up the cost savings of higher mileage? From a pure economic sense they would not, they would go with whatever was cheaper.

But thats where marketing and advertising comes in. These are very powerfull tools if used right, look at Hybrids. People love them they are hip, then look at H2's. Two perfect examples of people being told they want to buy something, and buying it.

One thing is for sure, if there was money in it they would import them. Its all about making money, thats not even business 101, thats like super basic intro 095.

I also suspect in the last year to 18 months all of the big car companies have done studies on the prospects of these cars. They would be crazy not to. The lack of people jumping on the diesel bandwagon at this time is telling. However I suspect the diesels time has not yet come in this country, when hybrids get old I think diesels may be the next enviro sweetheart cars.

aklim · #39 12-16-2006, 12:35 AM

Gas would have to be much higher than diesel for that to happen. Problem is the diesel engine is inherently more expensive, pumps are dirtier, fuel has more gelling problems, cold start problems to name a few. We won't even get into the fact that when you order a diesel engine it is more expensive up front.

Rashakor · #40 12-16-2006, 10:34 AM

What you are not seeing Aklim is that not everybody lives in Wisconsin...
Gelling of diesel, cold start, and even diesel prices are not problems in most of the Sunbelt. Besides the cost of diesel, like the CARB rules, are just a political decision away to be reversed if diesel becomes a green poster-child.

The only real hurdle of marketing diesel is the shortsighness of most uhmericun consumer that will go for the lower initial expense independently of operating expenses. The 1 or 2k premium on light-duty diesel engine is the real long-term obstacle.

Hatterasguy · #41 12-16-2006, 05:40 PM

Whats cheaper to run for 100k miles? A 2007 Honda Civic, or a 2007 VW TDI?

Maintaince is probably a wash, and mileage isn't that different. The TDI may beat the Civic on average of 5-10mpg.

Considering the lower initial purchase price of the Civic, where is the cost savings? I will bet if anyone sat down and calculated some real world numbers after say 100k miles the cost difference between these similer cars would be very small.

In MB world the cost savings is nill, E320 vs E300D its a wash.

Its eco 101 for any consumer market, everything being equal people will go with the lower priced good.

aklim · #42 12-16-2006, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rashakor

What you are not seeing Aklim is that not everybody lives in Wisconsin...

Gelling of diesel, cold start, and even diesel prices are not problems in most of the Sunbelt. Besides the cost of diesel, like the CARB rules, are just a political decision away to be reversed if diesel becomes a green poster-child.

The only real hurdle of marketing diesel is the shortsighness of most uhmericun consumer that will go for the lower initial expense independently of operating expenses. The 1 or 2k premium on light-duty diesel engine is the real long-term obstacle.

Or IL, NY, etc, etc. Still many cold states

How many states would you say that includes? While we are on that, what is the gas price vs diesel price in the sunbelt? Most places I have seen, diesel is more expensive

Lower initial expense is an important thing. If you ask someone whether to spend the extra 2000 on a leather interior or on a diesel engine, what can you tell them the advantage is? That is uses less of the more expensive fuel? Kinda of a push. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have bought a diesel. At that time, the prices were just a shade lower than gas. At current prices, I don't see a benefit to my checkbook. Yes, I buy less gallons of fuel but the fuel is more expensive. What is my savings? For towing my Toy Hauler, I have to get a turbodiesel. Not much choice there. For a car, not really unless you can show me the difference. Whether the new CDIs will get what they are rated at, we shall see. EPA says they will get significantly better but I haven't seen the data yet.

In any case, diesel is not going to be a free lunch. In time, more fuel stops will have diesel but not today. Pumps are dirtier from spills and you tend to trek more into the car. Cold start and gelling issues are important since you will have to contend with resale. I can't imagine why people seem to think that diesel will solve all the problems without bringing in it's own issues.

badtrukrisin · #43 12-16-2006, 07:15 PM

Read most of the posts in this thread and may have missed what is the real reason I consider to be paramount to US automakers in particular: They want to sell a new vehicle to the same person every couple of years or so. A diesel lasts forever!! Think about it. Who knows if they have any influence on furel prices or not. They could. Generally a person or business in Europe or Asia buys a vehicle that will last a generation so to speak, a bit more frugal than Americans so that is what they demand. They get it and we don't. I know I am over simplifying this, but maybe?

Bud

rwthomas1 · #44 12-17-2006, 01:11 AM

Simple math here:
VW TDI we own averages 47mpg, driven hard. 20K per year/47mpg=@425gallonsX$2.75per gallon=$1170 yearly fuel cost

Its hard to do a direct comparison to a Honda since the Jetta seems larger than an Civic and smaller than an Accord? It is certainly priced in between... Either way would a 35mpg be a realistic average for a Honda driven in the same manner as our TDI? If so:

Honda averaging 35mpg, 20K per year/35mpg=@571gallonsX$2.25per gallon=$1285 yearly fuel cost.

The TDI still has the advantage but not by much. I don't get the complaint about fuel gelling or cold starting problems. I have NEVER had any of these problems and it does get cold here in RI and up in NH where I frequently drive in winter. Diesel pumps can be nasty. The simple solution is to keep a set of gloves in the trunk for refueling. Cheap gardening gloves work well.

The simple fact that VW sells all the TDI's they make without any marketing campaign is sign enough that there is a market. Used TDI's easily sell for $1K-$2K more than book value. The Liberty CRD sold much better than expected. The GM Duramax plant manufactures 100,000+ engines per year and cannot build enough, they are at capacity. I think when Honda puts their CDI on the market it will sell like water in the sahara.

RT

greasybenz · #45 12-17-2006, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Diesel has been more expensive than gas for the last few years. So from a fuel savings point, you might be right but from a wallet standpoint, maybe not.

umm dont think so.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=134717&highlight=high+diesel+prices