Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-31-2006, 07:25 PM
Scott98's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 1,254
IP timing: Valve lift method differs from cam marks???

I checked my timing chain stretch yesterday by using the cam mark method. I had about five degrees of stretch. Well, I did some more reading and noticed people saying its not really an accurate method. I figured it was probably close enough but I thought, what the heck, I'll pick up a dial indicator at Harbor Freight and do it the right way. So I did. I've got 14 degrees of stretch!!!! I performed the test multiple times to make sure I was doing it right and came up with the same result each time. With 2mm of lift my crankshaft reads 25ATDC. I've got a 616 with a #10 cam code which should be 9 degrees ATDC with a new chain or 11 degrees ATDC with a used chain. 25 - 11 gives you 14 degrees of stretch. Yikes!


LET THIS BE A LESSON TO EVERYONE WHO USES THE CAM MARK METHOD. It is NOT always "close enough."

I'd be curious to know if other people have done it by both methods and had the same discrepancy I found.

Scott

__________________
Scott
1982 Mercedes 240D, 4 speed, 275,000
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (70,000)
1987 Porsche 911 Coupe 109,000 (sold)
1998 Mercedes E300 TurboDiesel 147,000 (sold)
1985 Mercedes 300D 227,000 (totaled by inattentive driver with no insurance!)
1997 Mercedes E300 Diesel 236,000 (sold)
1995 Ducati 900SS (sold)
1987 VW Jetta GLI 157,000 (sold)
1986 Camaro 125,000 (sold - P.O.S.)
1977 Corvette L82 125,000 (sold)
1965 Pontiac GTO 15,000 restored (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-31-2006, 08:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: MA, VA
Posts: 363
What is the part number? I should get around to doing this...
__________________
Andrew

1989 Volvo 745- 202K
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-31-2006, 08:04 PM
Scott98's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 1,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavaliers16 View Post
What is the part number? I should get around to doing this...
You can buy the tool at Harbor Freight - nothing special about it:

Dial indicator:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=33675

Magnetic base:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=5646
__________________
Scott
1982 Mercedes 240D, 4 speed, 275,000
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (70,000)
1987 Porsche 911 Coupe 109,000 (sold)
1998 Mercedes E300 TurboDiesel 147,000 (sold)
1985 Mercedes 300D 227,000 (totaled by inattentive driver with no insurance!)
1997 Mercedes E300 Diesel 236,000 (sold)
1995 Ducati 900SS (sold)
1987 VW Jetta GLI 157,000 (sold)
1986 Camaro 125,000 (sold - P.O.S.)
1977 Corvette L82 125,000 (sold)
1965 Pontiac GTO 15,000 restored (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-31-2006, 08:25 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
The two methods cannot differ by 14 degrees.

There is an error of some type in the procedure that you are using for the valve lift method.

The chances of the chain having an elongation of 14 degrees are just about zero.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-31-2006, 08:31 PM
dkveuro's Avatar
Sword of Damocles
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Here an' there.
Posts: 2,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
The two methods cannot differ by 14 degrees.

There is an error of some type in the procedure that you are using for the valve lift method.

The chances of the chain having an elongation of 14 degrees are just about zero.
I concure. Your measurement is flawed in some way.
Possibilities are =
Taking reading from follower finger instead of valve spring retainer.....Worn valve gear...Worn cam....worn follower...or balance pulley position migrated.

Please explain the method you used.




.
__________________
[http://languageandgrammar.com/2008/01/14/youve-got-problems-not-issues/ ]

"A liberal is someone who feels they owe a great debt to their fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posts: 6,510
I would be curious if someone rolled a new chain in sometime and got the cam one tooth off. The degrees off sound about right. Also there is another way to get chain stretch but you will have to hunt the archives for it. You physically measure the link pin distance over a specified distance and calculate the findings. Probably have to borrow a micrometer to do it. New chain distance is a known refference. Just my two cents worth and perhaps wrong but worth checking perhaps.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:02 PM
Scott98's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 1,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkveuro View Post
I concure. Your measurement is flawed in some way.
Possibilities are =
Taking reading from follower finger instead of valve spring retainer.....Worn valve gear...Worn cam....worn follower...or balance pulley position migrated.

Please explain the method you used.




.

This is the method I used:

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/OM617TimingChainStretch

Look here for pics I posted using the cam tower method. You'll see the indicator on the 4-5 degree mark:
Scuff marks on timing chain rollers

Like I said, I did the valve lift method about 5 times to make sure I was getting an accurate reading to include removing the tool and reinstalling it to make sure it was on right. I removed the valve lash, put the tool on top of the flat part that sits on top of the spring (valve keeper, I think its called) and then rotated the cam until I got 2mm of lift.

I don't know what I could have done wrong???

Scott
__________________
Scott
1982 Mercedes 240D, 4 speed, 275,000
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (70,000)
1987 Porsche 911 Coupe 109,000 (sold)
1998 Mercedes E300 TurboDiesel 147,000 (sold)
1985 Mercedes 300D 227,000 (totaled by inattentive driver with no insurance!)
1997 Mercedes E300 Diesel 236,000 (sold)
1995 Ducati 900SS (sold)
1987 VW Jetta GLI 157,000 (sold)
1986 Camaro 125,000 (sold - P.O.S.)
1977 Corvette L82 125,000 (sold)
1965 Pontiac GTO 15,000 restored (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:13 PM
dieseldan44's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,042
Hmm

FWIW, I just did both methods using the same instructions today and got the same answer using both methods.

This is the first time I tried it so Im no expert...

Perhaps you had the indicator bottomed out or not fully reaching down?
__________________
-------------------------------
'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:22 PM
Scott98's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 1,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldan44 View Post
Perhaps you had the indicator bottomed out or not fully reaching down?
No, I made sure this wasn't the case. Like I said, I removed the tool and repositioned it several times to make sure it was in proper contact. I made sure the cam lobe was facing up upon install and that the dial indicator turned approximately 3/4 of the way around until it hit the 2mm mark.

I really hope to find out what's going on.

Scott
__________________
Scott
1982 Mercedes 240D, 4 speed, 275,000
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (70,000)
1987 Porsche 911 Coupe 109,000 (sold)
1998 Mercedes E300 TurboDiesel 147,000 (sold)
1985 Mercedes 300D 227,000 (totaled by inattentive driver with no insurance!)
1997 Mercedes E300 Diesel 236,000 (sold)
1995 Ducati 900SS (sold)
1987 VW Jetta GLI 157,000 (sold)
1986 Camaro 125,000 (sold - P.O.S.)
1977 Corvette L82 125,000 (sold)
1965 Pontiac GTO 15,000 restored (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:29 PM
Scott98's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 1,254
I should add that when I first start the car there is a loud noise - almost like a valve tap - until the oil pressure builds up. I had a mechanic tell me its probably the timing chain. That's what first got me interested in checking the stretch. Maybe being off 14 degrees would cause that problem?? Why is 14 degrees impossible?

Scott
__________________
Scott
1982 Mercedes 240D, 4 speed, 275,000
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (70,000)
1987 Porsche 911 Coupe 109,000 (sold)
1998 Mercedes E300 TurboDiesel 147,000 (sold)
1985 Mercedes 300D 227,000 (totaled by inattentive driver with no insurance!)
1997 Mercedes E300 Diesel 236,000 (sold)
1995 Ducati 900SS (sold)
1987 VW Jetta GLI 157,000 (sold)
1986 Camaro 125,000 (sold - P.O.S.)
1977 Corvette L82 125,000 (sold)
1965 Pontiac GTO 15,000 restored (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:32 PM
Stevo's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NW WA
Posts: 6,299
Me thinks theres a mis calculation here
__________________


1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:40 PM
Scott98's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 1,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
Me thinks theres a mis calculation here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott98;
With 2mm of lift my crankshaft reads 25ATDC. I've got a 616 with a #10 cam code which should be 9 degrees ATDC with a new chain or 11 degrees ATDC with a used chain. 25 - 11 gives you 14 degrees of stretch.
I did it just like the pictorial showed, really. I can't for the life of me figure what I did wrong. I removed and reinstalled the tool several different times and got the EXACT same reading each time. If I didn't have it positioned properly, that error would have showed up. I also watched the crank rotate around two times for each camshaft turn. I am open to suggestions as to where I went wrong.

Thanks,

Scott
__________________
Scott
1982 Mercedes 240D, 4 speed, 275,000
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (70,000)
1987 Porsche 911 Coupe 109,000 (sold)
1998 Mercedes E300 TurboDiesel 147,000 (sold)
1985 Mercedes 300D 227,000 (totaled by inattentive driver with no insurance!)
1997 Mercedes E300 Diesel 236,000 (sold)
1995 Ducati 900SS (sold)
1987 VW Jetta GLI 157,000 (sold)
1986 Camaro 125,000 (sold - P.O.S.)
1977 Corvette L82 125,000 (sold)
1965 Pontiac GTO 15,000 restored (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-31-2006, 10:47 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
I would be curious if someone rolled a new chain in sometime and got the cam one tooth off. The degrees off sound about right. Also there is another way to get chain stretch but you will have to hunt the archives for it. You physically measure the link pin distance over a specified distance and calculate the findings. Probably have to borrow a micrometer to do it. New chain distance is a known refference. Just my two cents worth and perhaps wrong but worth checking perhaps.
I was mulling this over myself. But, IIRC, threre are 36 teeth on the cam gear. You need 720 degrees of crank rotation to rotate the cam through all 36 teeth. Therefore each tooth represents 20 degrees at the crankshaft. His current situation of 14 degrees late would then result in 6 degrees early.

So, if my numbers are correct, this cannot be the culprit.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-31-2006, 11:51 PM
Diesel on the brain
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Upstate Virginia
Posts: 566
Did you remove all valve last first? You do this by adjusting the valve past where it touches the cam lobe. This will result in a valve that is partially open so remember to readjust it when you are done.

-Tad
__________________
1995 G320
2003 C230 Kompressor Coupe
2005 ML500
2007 ML350
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-01-2007, 12:34 AM
Scott98's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 1,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by nazrat View Post
Did you remove all valve last first? You do this by adjusting the valve past where it touches the cam lobe. This will result in a valve that is partially open so remember to readjust it when you are done.

-Tad
Just how much valve lash do you remove? I loosened it up a lot.

__________________
Scott
1982 Mercedes 240D, 4 speed, 275,000
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (70,000)
1987 Porsche 911 Coupe 109,000 (sold)
1998 Mercedes E300 TurboDiesel 147,000 (sold)
1985 Mercedes 300D 227,000 (totaled by inattentive driver with no insurance!)
1997 Mercedes E300 Diesel 236,000 (sold)
1995 Ducati 900SS (sold)
1987 VW Jetta GLI 157,000 (sold)
1986 Camaro 125,000 (sold - P.O.S.)
1977 Corvette L82 125,000 (sold)
1965 Pontiac GTO 15,000 restored (sold)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page