Thanks in advance...

Checked IP timing tonight using the well-up method. Removed #1 injector line, dried out fuel with cleanpaper towel, and took measurement to be when fuel began to well up from the IP. I have a couple questions...

1.) My timing came out to be ~~15 deg BTDC. Spec is 24 deg. I already know my timing chain is off ~5 degrees, so my IP is off ~5 deg. Is this ok? Is it worth correcting? What differences will I notice with 10 deg retarded timing?

2.) Fuel only welled up every other engine revolution. Is this supposed to happen? Im showing my newbieness here, but I didnt see it noted anywhere that this would happen.

3.) I was cranking from the power steering and really having trouble being accurate. It was hard to increment it less than 5 degrees at a time. Can I improve the accuracy somehow using this method?

That RIV tool must be really nice to have...

thanks again for the help,
dieseldan44

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

Where exactly did you get the idea that the " Well Up Method" was a legit way to check this ?

There is not necessarily any correlation between valve timing and injection pump timing.

A four stroke engine requires 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation to complete one cycle for a particular cylinder.

The longer the wrench, the easier it is to turn the crankshaft precisely. A 24" breaker bar works well.

From this article: http://diymbrepair.com/easley/iptiming.htm

what would a better method be thats easy to do?

thank you

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure some people have posted doubts on using the well-up method as being accurate. The drip tube method is much preferred, and should still be pretty cheap (I have a drip tube on loan, but I can't imagine that being expensive).


IMO 5 degrees is timing chain replacement time. The book calls for a maximum limit of 10 degrees (IIRC), but you have to add "woodruff keys" so that the IP timing and whatnot aren't messed up.

Bad timing can cause smoke, poor fuel mileage, hard starting, knocking, etc.

Yes.

Take off the fan (as much as that sucks) and get a big long socket wrench and 27MM socket.



Welcome to the world of MB ownership!!

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John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 240k
'87 300TD - 318k

Reviewing a little more, looking at the FSM it's flow method is spec'ed out with the rack wide open. I did not do this. Probably invalidated my results somewhat.

Could not located the drip tube at Fastlane, anyone know how much it is?

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

Yep! I'd be interested to see by just how much that would change the timing too...

I believe you have to call for tools. Even if it is a part and it isn't online 95% of the time if you call they'll get it.

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John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 240k
'87 300TD - 318k

The FSM shows two methods... high pressure and low pressure... the latter with the drip tube. I acquired an old metal fuel line and used a hacksaw on it... and bent it to look like the FSM picture... I don't know how one would correlate the one drip per second which the FSM calls for with the ' welling up ' method...
I do not know who dreamed up the welling up method... but the problem may be the ' easy ' part of your request. It does not take much to do serious damage to these engines if certain rules are not followed... and they are expensive engines.... so maybe you should concentrate on finding the BEST and CORRECT method for what you are wanting to do... ????????
When looking at the FSM what shows up first to me is the WARNINGS... which are almost always left out of postings on the internet forums... they are ALL OVER the FSM pages.. and I take them to be there for a good reason... ( no reason to repeat mistakes which others have made and identified the cures for ) ....

I tried the well-up method just to check while I was waiting on my drip tube to arrive. I got readings about what you did, somewhere in the 10-15 deg range. I was a little worried until my drip tube arrived and I checked the timing per the fsm and found it to be spot on at 24 deg. If memory serves my drip tube was only about $25 on ebay but you should be able to pick up a spare hard line at a boneyard and make your own for a reasonable price.

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Seth

1984 300D 225K
1985 300D Donor body
1985 300D Turbo 165K. Totaled. Donor Engine. It runs!!!
1980 300SD 311K My New Baby.
1979 BMW 633csi 62K+++? Dead odo

The Well-Up test is too unreliable for solid begining of delivery observation...I have tried both..It may be close sometimes and may not be close other times....This is not recommended by Bosch....The drip test is recommended by Bosch...you can use a homeade drip tube..just point it toward the engine block to reduce siphoning effect...The drip test is very close to where the fuel fill stops without trying to count drips....You are just looking for the point of plunger rise where the top edge of the plunger just blocks the barrel fill port....This point of vertical travel of the plunger is the begining of the pressurization of the sealed fuel column....For me the drip test is easier to do than the well-up test with paper towels and trying to see down in the barrel....It is very clear where the shut-off point is with the drip tube....roll the engine around several times to confirm the fuel stoppage....It is really a barrel fill complete test rather than a (drip) test......The drips just indicate that the plunger is right at the threshold of fuel fill stoppage....All of the above info assumes that the proper set up for the test is performed first....(load lever,hand pumping ,crankshaft marks etc...)

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1978 Yellow 300D (The Mustard Toad)
1980 Blue 240D (The Iron Toad)
1989 Grey Mitsu.4WD Mighty Max Pickup (Needs a Diesel transplant bad)

(Open the pod bay doors HAL)

Thanks for all of the responses.

Ill get the drip tube for sure. I can't imagine trying to make an adjustment let alone a static measurement the way im doing it now.

ill post how much the drip tube is when I call phil, the PN doesnt bring anything up on the online catalog.

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

PN636 589 02 23 00
936 589 02 23 00
http://www.startekinfo.de/etools/content/tool.jsp?toolno=636%20589%2002%2023%2000
http://www.samstagsales.com/mercedes.htm 22$$
Can one make a drip tube out of a spare fuel line??Any internal diameter difference?Seems applicable to all diesel models from `50-ies to 1985...

By definition there is NO siphoning when dealing with DRIPS...
you would have to have no air at the top of the curve on the curved metal tube...
point it towards the engine so you can put a can or something under it to catch the fuel.

This is a RATE OF FUEL FLOW test and setting procedure. COUNT THE STUPID DRIPS and get as close to ONE PER SECOND like the FSM SAYS...
do it slowly so that changes in your IP position have time to translate to changes in the fuel getting to the top of the curved metal tube.

Thanks for the correction Leathermang...You are correct...There is no siphon...Bad choice of words on my part...Lets see if this makes more sense...(Fix the overflow tube toward the engine so that the drips comes out with pressure from the hand pump by the FSM procedure)....(If pointed away from the engine it is on more of a slant...so the drips may be too free for proper count)...post back and let us know how the timing turns out....

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1978 Yellow 300D (The Mustard Toad)
1980 Blue 240D (The Iron Toad)
1989 Grey Mitsu.4WD Mighty Max Pickup (Needs a Diesel transplant bad)

(Open the pod bay doors HAL)

I really do not think the direction the tube is pointing makes any difference with regards to the purpose of the tube with relation to the rate of flow. As long as the bottom inside of the curve at the top of the tube is above the exit from the IP then you are going to get drips....and drips of the same fluid at about the same temperature are pretty standardized by physics.... I think you can see it better and it is easier to place a catchcan...

I DO ,however, think that the pressure behind this test is a quirky and important issue. This has been discussed in former threads and I recommend something like a gallon fuel can hanging 3 feet above the IP for this test. That way you can repeat it the next time in order to adjust your setting if you need or want to.... but the hand pump measurement has two disadvantages....you can not count on the number of pumps one day equaling the number of pumps in terms of pressure on another day....and as soon as you start the process with fuel escaping the pressure is decreasing...and at a rate you can not measure.... a fuel container a specified distance above as the source eliminates both these problems of repeatability and constance of pressure .... as it may take some time to get it set and locked ( and it should be checked finally after being locked in place ).