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  #16  
Old 02-09-2007, 11:51 PM
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Sounds like both of mine idling, for the most part.

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  #17  
Old 02-10-2007, 12:02 AM
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Yes they're stills. Otherwise they wouldn't be so small (in terms of memory). Basically it's a 5-second "voice picture" from my Sony digital camera.

So you guys are saying there's no imminent engine destruction? The sound is pretty subtle and I do have to listen closely with the hood up to actually hear it. I was just wondering if it's a sign of a worn bearing or rod or something. I guess it's just some sort of a resonance.
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  #18  
Old 02-10-2007, 12:08 AM
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Just for a fun comparison, here's the same kind of recording of my '96 E300D. Notice how much smoother and quieter the 4-valve OM606 engine is compared to the OM616 engine.
Attached Files
File Type: zip E300D_idle_hood_up_06_27_2006.zip (36.7 KB, 51 views)
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  #19  
Old 02-10-2007, 12:38 AM
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Sounds just like my daughters 240D

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  #20  
Old 02-10-2007, 12:55 AM
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I like the "noisier" one better.

Its saying, "I'm a diesel"!
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  #21  
Old 02-10-2007, 01:31 AM
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Without even listening to your file. Running your engine on b50 is going to quiet the combustion knock down. You then of course will probablly hear noises that I do not hear on straight diesel fuel.
They of course would be hidden in the background by the heavy knocking otherwise. That should be normal I think on an older diesel. As one poster mentioned check you pump timing and chain tensioner.
It would not hurt to have a little thicker oil in the engine than the recommended weight in my opinion when the weather warms up. Or add one of the viscosity increasers to yor oil. I would preffer to add just heavier oil only though. That would tend to increase the thickness of the oil film on parts in an older engine. Might even be a little benificial overall.
The oil we run today in these older diesels is probably on the thinner side of a profile engineers had recommended on these engines anyways. A required comprimise to aid starting perhaps. Also lessens the oil drag and power absorbed by the oil pump for the first few minutes after starting.
Once warmed up I do not think the extra viscosity is going to hurt milage very much. It will have a very small effect though in my opinion. Also if you burn a quart of oil every 1500 miles I would expect that to reduce to a quart every 2000-2500 miles.
Thicker oil just does not get by the oil rings as easily. I think your present rate of base oil use might also be a good indicator of the general condition of rings and pistons and cylinder bores.
I would call the dividing line perhaps at one quart per thousand miles. Less use than that things are not worn too bad. Although more use than that indicates some things are probably slowly heading south. You have to eliminate all oil leaks to validate this consumption rate.
If this noise senario was still bothering me I might plasti gauge the first rod bearing. That particular point seems to be the archillies heel on the 240 d. A 240d engine can live quite reliably with certain aging factors. It will not live with the first rod problem.
This may become a standard preventative item as the 240s age to check out. Already we have a lot of people that wish it had been on their preventative maintenance list. Not too hard to do either. I wish some other people would share their thoughs on the first rod problem on these engines.
I own 1979 and 1982 240ds. I guess that gives me two #1 rods to check . It is probably a little late when they are audible. I also have no ideal if it is poor oil supply from something like sludge or exactly what factor makes that first rod bearing wear quicker than the others on far too many engines. I would check and rod out or try to clean out the oil feeder in the crank as much as possible when I did the plasti gauge cjeck as well. Just a few of my abstract thoughts.

Last edited by barry123400; 02-10-2007 at 01:50 AM.
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  #22  
Old 02-10-2007, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86560SEL View Post
I like the "noisier" one better.

Its saying, "I'm a diesel"!
You've got a point there. In fact with the E300D the only time you can tell that it's a diesel is at idle and only if you listen closely from the inside in complete silence or if you're standing outside. I don't really care for the gas-like engine sound while cruising, but I must say that when it comes to the idle it's awesome. It may be a tad too quiet, but I love the soft, butter-smooth diesel clatter. The TDI actually sounds more like the 240D though it's noticably quieter but not as quiet as the E300D, the reason being the direct injection and only 2 valves per cylinder.
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  #23  
Old 02-10-2007, 01:42 AM
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Barry, thanks for the abstract thoughts. My 240D's oil consumption is about a quart in 2500 miles. It may have actually gone down after almost a year on Red Line 5W-40. Before that I was using a mix of Delvac1 and Lucas Stabilizer which I don't believe in anymore (the Stabilizer that is). Also that engine noise is present even with the engine cold and the oil thick, so I don't think the oil viscosity has much to do with it if anything.

Are you saying the rod of the #1 cylinder in OM616 engines is problematic? That's the first time I'm hearing this.
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  #24  
Old 02-10-2007, 02:19 AM
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Yes if you go through the archives the number one rod bearing it is the killer of these engines. Other than that they just gracefully wear out usually. It is a wonder to me this item was not dealt with earlier. It is also always the first rod bearing that goes out. I think confirmation will be coming from others. It is not a common problem yet it is.
I felt it was fairly easy to check the wear at least somewhere around the mid engine life point as a preventative thing. Again I would like to hear from others.
Your redline 5-40 might be a little on the thin side for your older engine as well. Even when its pretty cool. My limited understanding is the multi grade oil either thickens with heat or does not decrease its cold viscosity with temperature. This is just an opinion though.
I also understand it helps cold starting out a lot as well. So it has to be thinner to do that. Also the oil viscosity increasers like you were using do not turn my crank so to speak. There have been too many stories of them being found in the bottom of the oil pan when engines are torn down.
I believe in the viscosity index of the oil actually put into the engine. They say you have to believe in something after all. Even in our cold climate this far north we feel safer with a heavier viscosity than you are using in the wintertime. An oil anyalisis might suprise you with your engine. If you have two identical engines one on petro base oils the other on synthetic your oil anyalisis will come back simular. If the viscosities ratings are the same. The synthetic does not lessen wear in general. It only aids cold starting because it has a lesser viscosity in my opinion. These old engines really need some viscosity to cushion things. I swear I am not trying to start an oil thread. I have to wonder if those noises you hear would be still there with 15w-40 dino oil in the engine. Your 2500 miles per quart is in my opinion an indication things are still pretty good with your engine. I am also not against synthetic oils at all. I suspect that even cold your 5-40 just might be too thin. I freely admit I could be wrong about that as well. Just some thoughts really. Unfortunatly I just reread your post. I see you have used 5-40 last summer. I feel that unless you live in the high artic that was not wise. I would not repeat it this summer. Again you and others may totally disagree.

Last edited by barry123400; 02-10-2007 at 02:38 AM.
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  #25  
Old 02-10-2007, 02:33 AM
ForcedInduction
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Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
It is also always the first rod bearing that goes out. I think confirmation will be coming from others. It is not a common problem yet it is.
It's a problem on mine.
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  #26  
Old 02-10-2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
I am also not against synthetic oils at all. I suspect that even cold your 5-40 just might be too thin. I freely admit I could be wrong about that as well. Just some thoughts really. Unfortunatly I just reread your post. I see you have used 5-40 last summer. I feel that unless you live in the high artic that was not wise. I would not repeat it this summer. Again you and others may totally disagree.
Barry, thanks again for the comments. I will respectfully disagree with you on whether Red Line 5W-40 is too thin, at least when compared to a dino 15W-40. One nice feature of synthetic oils is that they don't thin out as much as some dino oils do under high shear, high temperature conditions. Even if you take a high-quality dino oil like the 15W-40 Delvac 1300 you'll see it's no thicker at high temps than the RL 5W-40:

Viscosity at 100C:
Delvac 1300: 15.0 cSt
RL 5W-40: 15.1 cSt

HTHS (150C):
Delvac 1300: 4.3 cP
RL 5W-40: 4.6 cP

http://www.redlineoil.com/products_motoroil.asp
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSE2CVLMOMobil_Delvac_1300_Super.asp

It is at very cold and very high temps where synthetics truly shine. As to the Lucas Stabilizer, I didn't have any problems with it not mixing with the base oil and it definitely does thicken up the oil. At one time I had Mobil1 15W-50 in the crank along with 20% of the stabilizer. That's when I first noticed the sound. So it's definitely not the lack of viscosity that's the problem in my case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction
It's a problem on mine.
So how does your engine sound? Is it worse than mine?
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  #27  
Old 02-10-2007, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DieselAddict View Post
So how does your engine sound? Is it worse than mine?
It sounds like a normal OM617 with a single tick that stands out from the normal combustion noise. I can hear it really well when I drive along a wall/barrier to reflect the engine sounds back to me.

It's fairly audible in these videos when I revv the engine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-qW-PpPYy0 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oGv1HZGMSI
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  #28  
Old 02-10-2007, 03:04 PM
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Okay then off the oil stuff and I am certainly not offended in any way.I actually learn sometimes by challenging the status quo. It is obvious your background noise is really concerning you.
How about digging an old time mercedes mechanic out of the woodwork to have a listen? With a few questions directed towards a modern mercedes mechanic you should be able to locate one. He might still be working at a dealership part time for example. I might want to put the car back on straight diesel beforehand though. He will still hear it and identify the noise if it is unusual. The sound of the engine on b50 just might throw him but that is not even likely.
Some of these old timers really can read an engine as they worked on thousands of them. There will probably be no charge either for one of them to just have a listen and tell you more about your engine than you want to know perhaps.
To be accurate at diagnosing a sound blurb is probably a little too remote. I also suspect we have one or two guys on this site that go back as far as when these engines were released and have worked on thousands of them as well. You just need one in the flesh perhaps. If you are really lucky you will make a new friend. The experience with a real expert will be an experience not to be missed. Certainly worth a hundred mile drive if required. . I have been fortunate enough to have met a very few of them in my lifetime. They are still out there.

Last edited by barry123400; 02-10-2007 at 03:11 PM.
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  #29  
Old 02-11-2007, 10:55 AM
Tom Scordato
 
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Sounds fine a little high speed for me but fine. How does it start in the cold, does it smoke excessively does it burn oil excessively. Otherwise the 616 xx engines well some make some weird noises not a sign of any danger. Keep changing the oil religiouly. Drive it on the highway often.

Regards Tom 1979 240D
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  #30  
Old 02-11-2007, 12:18 PM
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FI, your tick/slap is definitely much louder than mine. I can only barely hear mine at idle, above that I don't hear anything unusual. So even the OM617's are prone to this problem. I didn't know that. Are you planning to do anything about yours, or are you just gonna drive it as long as it runs?

barry, I might have a local indy have a listen some day, but it doesn't bother me very much. I just had a slight concern about it. And I'm pretty sure whatever it is, nothing but an engine rebuild or replacement will fix it and doing that doesn't really make sense at this point.

tscorda, the car starts fine in the cold and there's no smoke, even after a cold start, though I'm sure that's at least partly thanks to the newer, afterglow relay that I have installed. As I have said previously, oil consumption is about a quart in 2500 miles which I think is pretty good for this engine.

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