Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-15-2007, 03:24 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
timing with pulse light

Hi,

can anyone explain me why the readings (settings) are different to those of i.e. the droplet method?
Are any settings known how to check the advancing device with the pulse light (AVL 875)?

And believe it or not she’s on the road now!! My 82 SD was sitting for nearly 4 years until I got the main work done and the license plates fitting into the front bumper.

Now after the first thousand km (still running) I put my hands on fine tuning.

Thanks from

Tom (WestCoastGermany)

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-15-2007, 03:29 PM
bgkast's Avatar
Rollin' on 16s
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Vancouver WA
Posts: 6,528
I beleive the Factory Service Manual reccomends using the drip method, that is what I would use.

How did you get a 300SD in Germany? Those were US only cars.
__________________
1979 240D- 316K miles - VGT Turbo, Intercooler, Stick Shift, Many Other Mods - Daily Driver

1982 300SD - 232K miles - Wife's Daily Driver

1986 560SL - Wife's red speed machine
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-15-2007, 03:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
A good friend imported the SD personally in 2002. There are very few of them on German roads.

I used the drip method in the past but now I am playing with individual cylinder timing.
In combination with thin injector lines of the 124 the ip timing can be changed with the lines attached and engine running.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-15-2007, 04:06 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
If you are setting with the pulse light, use a value of 14°BTDC as the spec.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-15-2007, 04:32 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
Brian,

What is the reason for this difference?
The pulse in the line is the pressure peak?
Should I see different readings when placing the clamp near to the IP compared to near to the injector?

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-15-2007, 04:36 PM
Tymbrymi's Avatar
Klatta Klatta
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Olive Branch, MS
Posts: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnik View Post
can anyone explain me why the readings (settings) are different to those of i.e. the droplet method?
The drip method is measuring start of delivery (the start of fuel being compressed). When you use a piezoelectric timing light you are measuring start of injection (pressure has built up in the lines enough and the injector actually starts injecting fuel). I'm not 100% that its start of injection with the timing light (might be end of injection or something), but start of injection is the most likely IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnik View Post
Are any settings known how to check the advancing device with the pulse light (AVL 875)?
I've never seen anything. If you find something though PLEASE share!!
__________________
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 240k
'87 300TD - 318k
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-15-2007, 04:39 PM
Tymbrymi's Avatar
Klatta Klatta
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Olive Branch, MS
Posts: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnik View Post
Should I see different readings when placing the clamp near to the IP compared to near to the injector?
Maybe. Everyone says liquids aren't compressible, but I was reading something from Bosch (forget where exactly) that says that at the pressures and speeds the IP puts on the fuel there is actually a compression wave that travels through the line. I don't know if it is possible to measure that with the timing equipment, but I would think its possible.
__________________
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 240k
'87 300TD - 318k
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-20-2007, 04:19 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
news from Bosch

using the AVL 21 +-1.5 deg BTDC @1000 rpm is spec. (with clamp near injector and lamp onto balancer). (for SUN and some others it is 18 deg)
For my AVL I also got a cable connection to the diagnostic socket instead of the lamp. Using this I can see the approx. 25 deg BTDC on the display of the AVL 875.
With the lamp I saw the 21 deg.

There are no specs for the advancing device.
If there is approx. 10 deg advancing @2000 rpm then the device is o.k.
The Bosch guy said it is only black or white, nothing in between.
No advancing means broken (noisy) or blocked movement by a wrong screw, but no wear or weak springs.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-20-2007, 03:21 PM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,101
With the wet static method, spec is 24° BTDC. (This is for OM61x engines, not OM60x.)
With the dry static method, spec is 14° ATDC. (Actually, 15° in older manuals.)
With dry dynamic FACTORY methods, it's still 14° ATDC, since this still plugs into the hole in the side of the pump, NOT using a piezo on the metal fuel line.

If you're using some tool that senses via piezo on the fuel lines, ideally you would set it with a factory method first, then test with the piezo and figure out what the correlation is. Numbers you get from anywhere else could be erroneous.

There is a spec to check the timing device, the FSM says it with the dynamic RIV it should be +3° to +5° at 5100rpm.

__________________
Dave
Boise, ID

Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-21-2007, 03:41 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
Dave,
thanks for clarifying.
What is FMS (timing device spec)?
The other numbers came from Bosch, Diesel injection shop.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-21-2007, 09:21 AM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,101
Sorry - I forget sometimes that not everyone is familiar with acronyms, lol. FSM = Factory Service Manual. You can get it on CD-ROM, and some nice person made it available online here (W124 only, but that includes the 602/603 for the SDL as well).

Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-21-2007, 05:57 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnik View Post
using the AVL 21 +-1.5 deg BTDC @1000 rpm is spec. (with clamp near injector and lamp onto balancer). (for SUN and some others it is 18 deg)
For my AVL I also got a cable connection to the diagnostic socket instead of the lamp. Using this I can see the approx. 25 deg BTDC on the display of the AVL 875.
With the lamp I saw the 21 deg.
Those values are incorrect.

I can assure you that 15ATDC with the RIV tool is precisely 14BTDC when you use the pulse generator sensor on the #1 fuel line.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-21-2007, 07:48 PM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
I can assure you that 15ATDC with the RIV tool is precisely 14BTDC when you use the pulse generator sensor on the #1 fuel line.
Those numbers sound more reasonable. Remember that the number for the pulse generator (14° BTDC) will match NOTHING in any of the factory manuals, because you're using a totally different reference point.


Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-21-2007, 09:51 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
Those numbers sound more reasonable. Remember that the number for the pulse generator (14° BTDC) will match NOTHING in any of the factory manuals, because you're using a totally different reference point.


Dave, for reference, we did a back to back test........checked timing with the RIV.......spot on 15°ATDC.........and then checked the pulse unit........right at 13.8°BTDC.

I'm confident in this data.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-22-2007, 08:20 AM
Gene
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,102
Guys 2 questions:, how much is the pulse light?

Also, it seems that the IP for the 606.910 has splined "outputs" ( sorry nomenclature escapes me). I ASSUME these splines are for "microtimng" each cylinder. If so, how does one do that? It seems your pulse method might be the only way, and then, at exactly which crank position?

I will learn how to tune this enigne! THNX!

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page