Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-18-2007, 01:11 AM
deanot442's Avatar
Diesel Dean
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canterbury CT
Posts: 204
603 harmonic balancer timing mark specification?

Hi all!
I am getting ready to reset the timing mark on the 87 300D. Reading through the timing mark setting procedure in the tech manual, I found that is says to find TDC using a dial indicator tool through the #1 injetor port, than travel past TDC to obtain a deflection of 3.22mm which equates to 20deg ATDC. This puts the “crank” sensor for the RIV tool dead center in the middle of the circle where the RIV tool mounts. Does this mean that the injection pump timing is then set to 20 ATDC, if that is the setting for the RIV tool? I have searched through the forum and everyone has said that the pump should be timed to 14 deg ATDC. Can anyone help me make sense of this?

Thanks
__________________
Dean
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-18-2007, 04:05 AM
dieseldiehard's Avatar
Dieseldiehard
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bay Area No Calif.
Posts: 4,170
The RIV is set at 14 to 15 degrees +/- ATDC. Brian has a great description on setting the IP here:
Specialized Indicator for IP Timing

I believe the theory of setting to 15 degrees is that it wears in to 14 degrees, not positive about that. One degree off will not make a lot of difference anyway. Presume your chain hasn't worn significantly? The method using the dial indicator takes mechanical wear on the cam and timing chain into account.
The RIV tool is extremely accurate and you have to turn the IP (or the crank pulley if your using that method) ever so slightly (teeny weeny little bits!) to get the lamp to go from A to B. It beats the drip method I've used on the 617 which is very good but the 603 is a different engine.
__________________
'00 E320 (wifes car), '95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

Last edited by dieseldiehard; 03-20-2007 at 12:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-18-2007, 04:18 AM
dieseldiehard's Avatar
Dieseldiehard
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bay Area No Calif.
Posts: 4,170
RIV timing method

Using the search tool I found a copy of the factory procedure:
http://ken.kdharris.net/kdhbenz/07-1-111.pdf
__________________
'00 E320 (wifes car), '95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-18-2007, 01:43 PM
deanot442's Avatar
Diesel Dean
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canterbury CT
Posts: 204
Here is the procedure I am working from to set the TDC indicator:
http://webpages.charter.net/deanot442/03-345.pdf

This is where it is telling me to set the indicator to 20 deg ATDC.
__________________
Dean
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-20-2007, 04:57 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
Dean,

what do you want to do?
IP timing: by RIV method set to 15 deg ATDC.

Your explanation describes the setting of the TDC sensor in the balancer, which is 20 deg ATDC.
This set up is only made in case the engine was disassembled to adjust the sensor to the correct crankshaft position. Only for dynamic timing this TDC sensor is used.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-20-2007, 06:47 AM
deanot442's Avatar
Diesel Dean
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canterbury CT
Posts: 204
Question

Tom,
I am trying to set the TDC indicator because the indicator was removed due to an earlier tear-down (cracked head, subsequent timing cover leak, timing chain replacement.....)

I am setting the TDC indicator to be able to use the RIV tool, to set the rest of the timing.

My thought was that, the sensor of the RIV tool that gets placed on the balancer, therefore ends up being placed at 20deg ATDC by the procedure I have referenced above. Am I correct? (I realize that the procedure above is not for setting IP timing but it does set the reference point of the crank for the RIV)

see procedure at:
http://webpages.charter.net/deanot442/riv%20timing%20mehod.pdf

Then the other part of the RIV tool goes into the IP and senses on its internal timing mark. So if that were the case wouldn’t the IP then be set for 20 instead of 14deg ATDC, or is there some type of compensation built into the RIV tool that adjusts for the difference?

Or am I just waaaaaay off on my thought process?????

The way I am thinking is that the sensor holder at the balancer should be set at 14deg ATDC to match the IP setting.
__________________
Dean

Last edited by deanot442; 03-20-2007 at 07:00 AM. Reason: adding riv timing procedure from cd manual
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-20-2007, 12:09 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
Dean,

o.k. now it is a little bit clearer for me.

The 15 deg ATDC for the RIV method is just a number for timing, depending on the inner notch of the IP.
It is just an abstract position for the 24 +- deg BTDC of crankshaft position when delivery should start.
The degs on the balancer is the master (physically correct position of the crankshaft).
The TDC sensor pin on the balancer is placed “just somewhere”. Now according the adjustment of the TDC sensor procedure the crank shaft has to be at 20 deg ATDC to have pin and sensor aligned.

When the notch in the IP is present (for the RI) it is start of delivery (static RIV method).
The spec speaks of indirect start of delivery when a tester is used.
Different testers like AVL, SUN, Bosch or Hartmann have not the same settings in the spec.
So the testers have some internal differences.
I.e. I have to set my 617.95x to 21 deg BTDC using clamp and lamp of the AVL. Approx. 5 deg off compared to the drip method. Using clamp and TDC sensor (diagnostic socket) the AVL shows me the 26 deg in the display.
Summary: Can’t answer your question. I think it is like that but don’t know why.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-20-2007, 04:02 PM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 7,996
The TDC pointer on the front of the engine has a 3° adjustment range. Generally it will end up being in the middle, if you set it with a dial gauge. I set mine with the cylinder head off, using a dial gauge on the piston crown to determine TDC. The 20° number you mention has NOTHING to do with pump timing... that is to allow quick setting of the TDC indicator using a special tool. None of this is really necessary though. If you have the head removed, it's nice to verify the pointer is accurate, but otherwise just leave it alone (or set it in the middle, if it's been disturbed.)

For the RIV tool, which I assume you mean the static setting using the A-B light box, you set it to 14° ATDC. As the timing chain wears, the setting will become retarded over time (15, 16, 17, etc) but this generally takes decades and 100's of k's of miles.

Forget the 24° (BTDC) number, that's for the wet methods. If you set it at 15° ATDC with the RIV (dry) method, then checked that setting with a wet method, it should read 24° BTDC. Same actual setting, different methods of measuring, each with a different reference point. I think you may be making it all more complicated than it really is, lol...

__________________
Dave M.
Boise, ID

1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-20-2007, 11:00 PM
deanot442's Avatar
Diesel Dean
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canterbury CT
Posts: 204
Tom, Dave.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. You both have been very helpfull. Dave I see your point about the quick set tool.
I think I was getting sidetracked by the timing device called out in the procedure on my cd (see attached photos) it shows 2 sensors being used together one at the balancer and one in the pump tied together in a test box. I thought the more commonly used RIV tool used the same method, but thats where I was incorrect
Attached Thumbnails
603 harmonic balancer timing mark specification?-riv.jpg   603 harmonic balancer timing mark specification?-new-riv.jpg  
__________________
Dean
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-21-2007, 10:32 AM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 7,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by deanot442 View Post
Tom, Dave.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. You both have been very helpfull. Dave I see your point about the quick set tool.
I think I was getting sidetracked by the timing device called out in the procedure on my cd (see attached photos) it shows 2 sensors being used together one at the balancer and one in the pump tied together in a test box. I thought the more commonly used RIV tool used the same method, but thats where I was incorrect
The device shown in your photo is the factory setup for dynamic RIV. It requries two inputs... one to the balancer, so it knows where TDC is, and one at the pump, so it knows where the pump is.

The difference is that the factory setup (shown in your photo of the FSM) plugs into the pump's RIV port, sensing a tab on the governor flywheel. The aftermarket quick-connect setups use a piezo sensor that clamps on to the #1 fuel line. You'll get different readings from the two methods.

The more commonly used tool is the static "A-B light box", which plugs into the RIV hole in the side of the pump, but requires you to use your eyeballs to read the balancer. I have this tool, it works great, but doesn't allow checking the timing with the engine running (and I can live with that.)



This tool has gone up in price, I think it's closer to $300 now:
__________________
Dave M.
Boise, ID

1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page