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-   -   Strange idle warm start behavior 603 engine (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/183525-strange-idle-warm-start-behavior-603-engine.html)

gsxr 03-27-2007 09:00 PM

Pretty likely to be an injector. But the high oil consumption isn't a good sign. You do know about the infamous rodbending 3.5L, right...?

:(

jshadows 03-27-2007 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr (Post 1462907)
Pretty likely to be an injector. But the high oil consumption isn't a good sign. You do know about the infamous rodbending 3.5L, right...?

:(

Of course..I'm not worried...I don't see it as that high given the way I drive :D ...Owner's manual says the same too..that oil consumption is normal when you run the higher rpms..maybe that was CYA on their part ;)

gsxr 03-27-2007 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshadows (Post 1462934)
Of course..I'm not worried...I don't see it as that high given the way I drive :D ...Owner's manual says the same too..that oil consumption is normal when you run the higher rpms..maybe that was CYA on their part ;)

Aaaargh. Yes, that is total BS from the factory and a complete CYA. Reality is, if the engine uses a quart in less than 4000 miles, it's too much. My 603's are in the 4000-8000 mile range per quart. 2000 means something ain't right, and below 1000 is impending doom. A hot compression check would be a good idea. The common cylinders with bent rods tend to be #1 and #6 for some reason. Also, the head gasket tends to fail ahead of the #1 cylinder, but with a #22 head this is less likely due to the redesign of the oil passage on the latest head. Bummer you didn't measure piston protrusion on all six while the head was off.

:(

jshadows 03-27-2007 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr (Post 1462944)
Aaaargh. Yes, that is total BS from the factory and a complete CYA. Reality is, if the engine uses a quart in less than 4000 miles, it's too much. My 603's are in the 4000-8000 mile range per quart. 2000 means something ain't right, and below 1000 is impending doom. A hot compression check would be a good idea. The common cylinders with bent rods tend to be #1 and #6 for some reason. Also, the head gasket tends to fail ahead of the #1 cylinder, but with a #22 head this is less likely due to the redesign of the oil passage on the latest head. Bummer you didn't measure piston protrusion on all six while the head was off.

:(

I did test for leakage over 2 weeks though...filled cylinders with oil and didn't lose any...sixto who was a victim i don't think was able to hold any oil.

In any case it has a #22 head now and a new gasket and these running problems seem to be completely fuel related.

If I was having compression problems I would expect harder cold starts (quite the contrary) and misfires in a bent rod cylinder, kinda like the glow plug wasn't working.

Anyway, car runs great and haven't seen any degradation over several thousand miles or so...I generally don't let it idle too long either..so it really is a cosmetic thing at the moment...i just like things to be perfect :D

cgunderm 03-28-2007 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton (Post 1462017)
The possibility exists for a defective injector, but connecting the problem with temperature change is difficult.

I had almost exactly the same symptoms with my new (to me) 93 300D 2.5 (some here may recall my postings from about 6 weeks ago), and it turned out to be the injectors. The only difference between what you are describing and what mine was doing is that mine was really noisy, a noise that I could have sworn was valve noise. But it was the injectors. They were all bad. With 5 rebuilt injectors, the symptoms are completely gone, no smoke, no noise, no more skipping after 2 minutes of idle and until warm....

gsxr 03-28-2007 12:17 AM

I re-read your original post and I'm leaning towards delivery valve seals as more likely, with injectors second in line for suspicion. It's almost definitely not glow related. I'd pull all 6 injectors and have them pop tested at a good diesel shop for pattern and opening pressure. Might even be an air leak on the fuel supply side, but I doubt it. Have you tried running a can of Diesel Purge through for grins? The rodbend/compression issue likely doesn't apply, for the reasons you mention above. It's just worrisome for the long-term picture, that's all. :o

BTW - bummer about selling both your Ducks. I've got a Mille RSV-R (back when that meant carbon fiber & Ohlins, unlike now) but sadly it spends too much time under a sheet in my shop, waiting patiently to be flogged on a sunny summer day...

:beerchug:

gsxr 03-28-2007 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgunderm (Post 1463109)
1993 300D 2.5turbo, 155K miles, green/tan (new and trying to figure it out, what a gorgeous car!)

Congrats on the new car! I just bought the same thing 6 months ago, with 155k on the clock... now at 162k. Took me forever to find one with ASD and heated seats, but it was worth it, even though it needs a paint job. I used the heated seats almost every time I got in it this winter, lol!

:D

jshadows 03-28-2007 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr (Post 1463111)
I re-read your original post and I'm leaning towards delivery valve seals as more likely, with injectors second in line for suspicion. It's almost definitely not glow related. I'd pull all 6 injectors and have them pop tested at a good diesel shop for pattern and opening pressure. Might even be an air leak on the fuel supply side, but I doubt it. Have you tried running a can of Diesel Purge through for grins? The rodbend/compression issue likely doesn't apply, for the reasons you mention above. It's just worrisome for the long-term picture, that's all. :o

BTW - bummer about selling both your Ducks. I've got a Mille RSV-R (back when that meant carbon fiber & Ohlins, unlike now) but sadly it spends too much time under a sheet in my shop, waiting patiently to be flogged on a sunny summer day...

:beerchug:

Yeah...sounds like the way to go. I just haven't had the time to pull the injectors and have them serviced by a reputable shop nor get off my arse and by the little wrench for the doing the delivery valves.

As for my Ducati's I miss them, but the Fuji makes up sometimes for them. Plus I used to race them on the safer circuits of France and Belgium (Le Mans, Magny Cours, Spa..well Spa is sorta safe :rolleyes: ). The tracks around here kinda freak me out, though I hear Barber is the business. A couple of friends switched over to the RSV-R when the price/value between those and the ducati's was just off the radar. Big difference I noticed was the size. Ducati's skinny, Aprilia's very wide when compared but I'm told you don't notice it once you get going.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

jshadows 03-28-2007 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgunderm (Post 1463109)
I had almost exactly the same symptoms with my new (to me) 93 300D 2.5 (some here may recall my postings from about 6 weeks ago), and it turned out to be the injectors. The only difference between what you are describing and what mine was doing is that mine was really noisy, a noise that I could have sworn was valve noise. But it was the injectors. They were all bad. With 5 rebuilt injectors, the symptoms are completely gone, no smoke, no noise, no more skipping after 2 minutes of idle and until warm....

Yeah, definitely not valve noise. On pure diesel purge, pure ATF and SVO it runs extremely smooth, less noise than a gasser (though those are all at operating temp). Valves are super quiet on Amsoil 5W-40. I've moved one of the offending injectors to a different position and the noise moves with. I think at least 2 injectors are nailing though. If I had had the foresight to get the DV wrench when I bought the IP lock tool I probably would have killed a lot of birds at the same time, but alas I love creating more work for myself :rolleyes: .

I don't advocate running the engine on ATF..it's the only thing I had laying around that was clean when I was changing filters...boy it runs smooth, but it sure does stink!


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