Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 10-27-2010, 11:32 AM
mach0415's Avatar
Diesel Weasel
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lawndale, NC
Posts: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogner24 View Post
As a former agricultural diesl mech, I can tell you that for many International diesels, ether is a must. John Deeres also. The key is, these are non-glow plug engines. With the glow plug motors, it is really not advisable (I am guilty as the rest as far as that goes-refer 300D giving me fits-post). I know of an International 313 Diesel with over 9000 hours that has never been torn down and has been started with ether all its life. Unhooking the glow plugs is a good idea, I don't know exactly how it will affect the top end though.
Ditto on IH diesels, FWIW. The 9.0 L V8 used in 1900 series trucks and busses in the northern states in the 1980s had an "ether start" button on the dash. These were non-glow engines. I am in NC and our 1985 IH school bus has no such button, as it really does not get cold enough here, but it has a 9.0 V8

__________________
Thanks,
Mark in NC

"Spark plugs?...We don't need no stinking spark plugs!"
1985 300SD "Der Silberne Schlitten" 420,000 mi


Wish these were diesel:
2003 Ford Club Wagon 130,000 mi
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-27-2010, 02:42 PM
winmutt's Avatar
85 300D 4spd+tow+h4
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Atl Gawga
Posts: 9,346
Boneyard thread! Almost a decade old!
__________________
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/sig.04.10.jpg
1995 E420 Schwarz
1995 E300 Weiss
#1987 300D Sturmmachine
#1991 300D Nearly Perfect
#1994 E320 Cabriolet
#1995 E320 Touring
#1985 300D Sedan
OBK #42
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-27-2010, 04:31 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by winmutt View Post
Boneyard thread! Almost a decade old!
And the facts are still true today..
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-27-2010, 04:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 153
Most OM352, 5.7L L6 found in 60's, 70's and 80's diesel Unimogs has an ether pilot starter. Can't find the cartridges for them to save your life anymore though. No glow plugs. Now days you just start a fire underneath them
__________________
1986 300 SDL - rolling parts car and test bed.
1987 300 SDL - semi daily driver.
1977 U1000 Unimog
2007 Ram 2500 6.7l
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-30-2012, 04:54 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 38,610
Just a very light wiff for a diesel in a pinch....
__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:43 PM
mach4's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: San Diego County, CA
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Smith View Post
Most OM352, 5.7L L6 found in 60's, 70's and 80's diesel Unimogs has an ether pilot starter. Can't find the cartridges for them to save your life anymore though. No glow plugs. Now days you just start a fire underneath them
Like this??




From This Thread
Attached Thumbnails
starting fluid=KA BOOM?-blockheater1.jpg  
__________________
Current Stable
  • 380SL (diesel)
  • Corvette C5
  • Manx
  • Baja Bug
  • F350 Powerstroke
  • Auburn Boattail Speedster replica
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-01-2012, 04:12 PM
Stevo's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NW WA
Posts: 6,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Smith View Post
Most OM352, 5.7L L6 found in 60's, 70's and 80's diesel Unimogs has an ether pilot starter. Can't find the cartridges for them to save your life anymore though. No glow plugs. Now days you just start a fire underneath them
Not sure if this is the same thing, but I remember from my deckhand days, Caterpillar 397/8 engines used a large ether "pill" every time for starting cold.
__________________


1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:24 AM
Fold on dotted line
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SE Mich
Posts: 3,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by clacker View Post
I have used with excellent results alot-BUT only in very short bursts and with nothing to lose. I only use it on cars that have very low compression and had the engines diagnosed as dead. I do not like starting fluid as you would buy in a can at the auto parts store, to flammable (I had a nice fire in my carburated Lincoln going once). I like WD-40, it is not nearly as flammable and has much less "uneven" combustion. I know the popping sound people are talking about, but the WD is much easier on the diesel. As I mentioned, only as a last resort to get an engine going, that has compression so low that it should no longer run. I have had excellent results, all the diesels I have bought for next to nothing always run, at least enough to properly diagnose the reason for low compression. Again, short bursts only is all it takes, the engine should start firing on one or more cylinders and be good to go. Always have a running vehicle boosting too, there is nothing like a second battery and altenator to help turn the engine over (of course towing works too, but is difficult).
The one time I have used it on a good car was very successful, a poor kid was just expelled from a private school, wanted to get home right away, the 1980 Mercedes 300TD was burried in the snow bank and it was 15 below. Plugged it in and he called the garage next door for a boost. They told him it was hopeless, if the boost didn't get him going nothing would. Well I walked past him and said if the car isn't running when I get back from work, I would guarantee he would be on his way. It was still there, plugged in and not firing at all, just cranking. I hooked up a car to the battery, took of the air cleaner cover and grabbed a can of WD from the maintenace guy. I had the car running immediately, and no terrible sounds from the engine, it just started. The kid had never been able to get the car going when it was below zero and could not believe. All it needed was one cylinder to fire and that sped up the rpms enough to get the rest going.
I believe that you are taking the life of the engine in your hands if you use starting fluid on:

- any modern passenger car diesel (1960 onwards)
- any diesel with glow plugs
- any diesel with compression ratio higher than 17:1

The older and special-use diesels which used starting fluid PROPERLY could use it if administered PROPERLY.

There are even some German diesels that have a special add-on to the intake manifold where you put a supply of ether/starting fluid in a pressurized can!

These are older agricultural, mining and locomotive, for the most part, including some Caterpillar diesels from the 1960s that were put in bulldozers for wet climates like Alaska.

In those diesels, the ether was used to collect the condensation in the engines that had been left in high-humidity places and couldn't start. We're talking Alaska in the winter, here. Or India, Lister one-cylinder models that had to have bearings pressure-oiled before they could be started, after being neglected the entire period of WW 2!

In the case of the Alaskan Cats,

- a charcoal pan was placed under the vehicle to bring the general temp of the engine block and the oil to 40 degrees
- those with pony motors had the pony motors started and charged and kept at warm temp for easy starting later;
- the areosol systems were checked, to make sure that ether would spray ON COMMAND

The pony motor was started and a mix of ether and kerosene, with a teaspoon of turpentine (an old trick to increase the cetane rating of the fuel!) was sprayed in very short bursts and the vehicle was turned over.

30 seconds of starting attempts told the tale.

Usually two tries worked.
-----------------------------------------------------

In a modern automotive context, I have started to do some things to make the cars start-friendly:
- synthetic oil;
- block heater/ cooling systen heater (which also keeps the battery warm)
- minimum of 1/3 tank of fuel
- occasional addition of diesel fuel conditioner, once every other tank
------------------------------------------------------------------

IF I decide to start an older diesel, the key is to heat the block until it is warm, and to heat the oil until it is warm.

Having said that, magnetic block heaters are good, so are dispstick heaters.

If you have to use something to start your diesel, buy a spray can of WD-40 and keep it in the house. Put it in hot water in the sink before you go outside to start it. Hot fuel does make a difference. Don't put the can is boiling water!

The alternative is to get a larger can of WD40 and a plastic spray bottle, which heats very fast in hot water in the sink

Glow it, and then start while someone sprays.

It may start and then die until you get more hot fuel up front.
Expect two-three tries.

My third 240 started this way with 5 dead glow plugs and no block heater plugs, when I first got it.

If you use ether, keep a fire extinguisher handy!
__________________
Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-18-2013, 08:12 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,416
Hmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BitterCreek View Post
Starting fluid will only cause damage if it contacts the glowplugs when they are hot. If the relay/fuse has failed or you disable the glowplugs there is no harm using starting fluid in an emergency.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/85676-ether-use-abuse-*flame-suit-*-3.html
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-18-2013, 08:17 PM
VW1300's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Just west of Baltimore
Posts: 465
I once used WD-40 in my 300D - was that risky? It seemed to work.
__________________
Charlie

---------------------------
'66 VW 1300 96K miles
'97 E300D 239K miles
'85 300D 203K miles (sold Sep 2012)


Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-18-2013, 08:24 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,416
Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by VW1300 View Post
I once used WD-40 in my 300D - was that risky? It seemed to work.
There is no risk using WD-40.


.
__________________
ASE Master Mechanic
asemastermechanic@juno.com

Prototype R&D/testing:
Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician.
Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH).
Dynamometer.
Heat exchanger durability.
HV-A/C Climate Control.
Vehicle build.
Fleet Durability
Technical Quality Auditor.
Automotive Technical Writer

1985 300SD
1983 300D
1984 190D
2003 Volvo V70
2002 Honda Civic

https://www.boldegoist.com/
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-18-2013, 08:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 18,350
Detroit 8.2 4 cycle diesels often had aerosol ether systems with a push button in the cockpit when installed in motohomes.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:59 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: War Eagle Arkansas
Posts: 212
Some of you are passing around total BS information, others of you are listening to it, and repeating it to others. Are you hoping they ruin their engines? I would hope not.

All diesels are not all the same. Some of you saw a can of Ether used on a diesel, or saw some moron use some on one, and made the jump in intelligence that all diesels must be the same.

I gather by reading all this, that some of you have no real clue how a diesel really operates, and no idea what compression does. So when someone with 40 some years experience tells you you shouldnt do something, rather than listen, you go back to what you saw Joe idiot do.

All diesels are not all the same. Some can tolerate Ether, because they have MUCH lower compression than a MB, but it is harmful to all of them. It is harmful to all of them. It is harmful to all of them. It is especially harmful to high compression diesels, which include most MB. Rather than blow up your engine, why not pick up the phone and call a IH Case dealer, and ask why they dont offer it anymore, and why they removed the system from all their older machines. Call a Detroit Diesel Dealer, ask for the service dept, and ask what Ether does. Ask what they've seen it do.

Some people dont have enough brains to pour the sand out of their shoe. That doesnt mean you have to be dumb enough to follow them. The pic of the old Unimog is fun, but that too, is likely a low compression diesel. Again, we have to know more than if its just a diesel, we have to know its compression. I hear these clowns talking Ether in Detroits. Well, it hurts them. It blows their compression and soon Ether becomes the only way to start them, and then they stop running altogether.

Plug your MB in when its cold, buy the winter fuel blend, keep it tuned, make sure it has a good battery and starting system, and run the glows two cycles before you crank. If the engines any good it should start. If it wont, go back in the house or drive your other car. But Ether will shorten it life. Perhaps immediately.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-19-2013, 01:00 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,416
Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BitterCreek View Post
That is blatantly false.
A pre-chamber engine is not the same as a direct injection engine.
Yes, some direct injection engine manufacturers allow starting fluid, this is totally irrelevant.

If you did read through the link I posted.

On MB pre-chamber engines:
* Starting fluid is the last resort = dire emergency use.
* If the glow plugs are not disabled, it is a great way to break piston rings.
* Using too much starting fluid is often catastrophic for the engine.
* Constant use of starting fluid is begging for disaster.
* I gave detailed directions of the safe/correct way (where and how) to use a minuscule volume of starting fluid on these engines.

I will be happy to discuss this topic further, if you want to call me.

.
__________________
ASE Master Mechanic
asemastermechanic@juno.com

Prototype R&D/testing:
Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician.
Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH).
Dynamometer.
Heat exchanger durability.
HV-A/C Climate Control.
Vehicle build.
Fleet Durability
Technical Quality Auditor.
Automotive Technical Writer

1985 300SD
1983 300D
1984 190D
2003 Volvo V70
2002 Honda Civic

https://www.boldegoist.com/

Last edited by vstech; 01-19-2013 at 08:50 PM. Reason: to remove Lance messages...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-19-2013, 01:01 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,416
Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BitterCreek View Post
Many diesels have an ether start-aid system. The 8.2's don't have glowplugs.
KBi - Kold Ban International - Ether System and Capacitors
A pre-chamber engine is not the same as a direct injection engine.
Yes, some direct injection engine manufacturers allow starting fluid, this is totally irrelevant.


.

__________________
ASE Master Mechanic
asemastermechanic@juno.com

Prototype R&D/testing:
Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician.
Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH).
Dynamometer.
Heat exchanger durability.
HV-A/C Climate Control.
Vehicle build.
Fleet Durability
Technical Quality Auditor.
Automotive Technical Writer

1985 300SD
1983 300D
1984 190D
2003 Volvo V70
2002 Honda Civic

https://www.boldegoist.com/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Problem starting when at operating temperature bkj_90_300D Diesel Discussion 12 07-07-2009 10:05 AM
Sad Car, Mom and Child donnasride Diesel Discussion 34 12-21-2003 09:45 AM
Puzzling 240D starting problem arkie Diesel Discussion 8 12-16-2003 09:23 AM
97 E420 Hard Starting Skibo Tech Help 2 05-23-2003 05:03 PM
Starting Fluid in diesels kweimer Diesel Discussion 14 12-31-2001 08:51 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page