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  #1  
Old 06-21-2007, 06:35 PM
dieseldan44's Avatar
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Arrow Oh no! I'm stuck with the drip/well up methods?!

I didnt realize my 82 was pre-RIV tester compatible (84 is the first year of RIV capability). Major, major bummer!

So now it looks like I'm stuck with the drip method. Im going to try the milli-volt method, but Id like to get the drip method to at least work a little to cross check.

I followed the FSM to the T last night with the drip method, but I couldn't get anywhere. Id pump th primer, and the tube goes squirt then drips slower and slower...never sustaining this mythical 1 drop per second rate.

Is there a thread where someone really takes the drip method technique on? I have read a lot in the archives, but nothing has worked.


Many thanks,
dd

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  #2  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:00 PM
winmutt's Avatar
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Drip method is perfectly fine. DO NOT USE THE well up method. Totally inaccurate (10degrees off on my car)
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:01 PM
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First I would like to point out the Haynes manual has a pretty good writeup on this and can be bought for $1 at Autozoo. That's not a typo it's really $1.

So you put the crank at 23 deg BTDC on the compression stroke . Removed the delivery valve. And are rotating the IP while keeping up pressure by pumping the primer pump?

If it's squirting that's obviously not the start of delivery. What your looking for is the last degree at which you can get solid fuel to come out by priming the hand pump. Beyond that the flow will quickly start getting restricted. That's your timing point.

Danny
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  #4  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winmutt View Post
Drip method is perfectly fine. DO NOT USE THE well up method. Totally inaccurate (10degrees off on my car)
Please enlighten me on how to make the drip method accurate. Can you sort of fill in the blanks of the FSM article with some more details to help us un-initiated out?
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldan44 View Post
Please enlighten me on how to make the drip method accurate. Can you sort of fill in the blanks of the FSM article with some more details to help us un-initiated out?
It would help if you stopped saying you followed the FSM and tell us exactly what your doing.

Danny
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  #6  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:37 PM
dieseldan44's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannym View Post
It would help if you stopped saying you followed the FSM and tell us exactly what your doing.

Danny
Sure thing...

1. Remove the steel injector line the on the #1 cylinder.
2. Take off the top part of the #1 IP outlet, remove delivery valve and spring. Put ip outlet back on.
3. Put homemade drip tube on, facing toward engine block. Place small pan underneath to catch diesel.
4. Remove vacuum line from VCV as FSM states. Since FSM is a little fuzzy here, also removed vac line from the fuel shut off valve, since it seems this would have a much greater effect than the VCV.
5. Wire the rack to full.
6. Removed #1 glowplug for compression relief. Not necessary and doesnt seem to help much,but i did it this time.
7. Take 27mm deep well socket and ratchet, and put on crank bolt from underneath.
8. Turn engine to 40 BTDC on compression stroke. Looked for compression stoke on #1 by opening oil cap and making sure both cam lobes were pointed generally up.
9. Opened small 17mm fuel union screw and pumped primer to bleed air from the system. Fuel squirts out of the tube and the union fitting, no air. Close union screw.
10. Turn to 35 BTDC. No fuel leaking from tube. Pumped primer. Fuel squirts out, drips, then quickly slows to a stop.
11. Repeat this process every couple of degrees. Advancing the crank by means of tapping the ratchet with a dead blow hammer gently. Prime the pump and it does the same thing, squirts then goes to a stop. At some point when I pump the primer, no more fuel comes out.

Around my step #10 is where I need the blanks filled in as to exactly when to pump and when to look at the drip tube, especially since I'm trying to do this by myself. FSM is pretty unclear, at least to me at this stage of knowledge of the process. Im sure once I know itll be 'duh', but not now.

Thank you for reading...
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'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car
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  #7  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:39 PM
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Drip method

Just get the drip right at the fuel (drip/flow) cut off point....you will drive yourself crazy trying to count drips if doing this the first time....The timing will be so close at the fuel stoppage threshold that even the meter could not tell.....Drips are just to indicate you are at the point of fill port closure which begins start of delivery....plenty close enough for these engines....I have varied my IP timing on both sides of the magic 24 degree mark and could not tell much difference either way..... but I set it as close to correct as I could for peace of mind.....once you do it a couple of times...it will make more sense....

The degree wheel marking at which the fuel quits flowing from the drip tube as you are pumping the hand pump and very slowly turning the crankshaft is the current timing setting on the car now...whatever it is......after determining this then you can loosen and move your pump in the correct direction to get on the 24 degree mark...

You must be pumping the hand pump to provide the flow so you can tell when the port seal occurs.....If you stop pumping before port closure then the fuel just stops because it has lost its pressure from the hand pump...

You are looking for the hard fuel cut off point of the plunger blocking the port .....not the fuel stopping because of no hand pump pressure....
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Last edited by yellit; 06-21-2007 at 07:52 PM. Reason: more info
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  #8  
Old 06-21-2007, 08:28 PM
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I'm personally a fan of the bubble method. I personally think its easier than the drip method and gives better results for me. Below is a write up that I copied from Marshall Booth over on the Mbz.org mailing list (he's a member here too, though not so active here).
-----------
On the subject of diesel timing. If you are replacing the pump or rebuilding the engine. The simplest and most accurate way of setting the pump is: Disconnect the fuel line going into the pump from the filter. Take the spring and plunger out of #1 delivery valve, put the delivery valve back in and snug it down, hold the the pump linkage in the full open position. If you have the drip tube install it on the delivery valve, if not use the injector line in such a way that it is pointing away from the engine. It you don't mind the taste of diesel you can blow through the fuel line or use low air pressure. Put the open end of the injector line in a glass of water and watch the bubbles. Turn the engine slowly until the bubbles stop and check the timing mark. After tightening the pump recheck. This method is really more precise than it needs to be and although it may sound complicated it is very easy .
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2007, 10:02 PM
ForcedInduction
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Don't use the "well up" method. It's inaccurate at best.

The drip tool is only $10 or free if you have a spare injection line to make one from.
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2007, 10:13 PM
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I think I am beginning to understand here.

It's not obvious in either the FSM or Haynes that you need to keep pumping the the pump.

I understand what I am trying to do now. There is a point where fuel will spew out of the tube. There is a point where fuel will not. I want the transition point to be 24 BTDC.

Now I have a clue and I will do a pictorial if I can get this to work well. I'm sure you guys who understand this must roll your eyes with all the questions by those who haven't done it.

Is the vacuum connection that you need to disconnect indeed the VCV or is it the shutoff valve?

dd
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'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car
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  #11  
Old 06-21-2007, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjohn View Post
I'm personally a fan of the bubble method. I personally think its easier than the drip method and gives better results for me. Below is a write up that I copied from Marshall Booth over on the Mbz.org mailing list (he's a member here too, though not so active here).
-----------
On the subject of diesel timing. If you are replacing the pump or rebuilding the engine. The simplest and most accurate way of setting the pump is: Disconnect the fuel line going into the pump from the filter. Take the spring and plunger out of #1 delivery valve, put the delivery valve back in and snug it down, hold the the pump linkage in the full open position. If you have the drip tube install it on the delivery valve, if not use the injector line in such a way that it is pointing away from the engine. It you don't mind the taste of diesel you can blow through the fuel line or use low air pressure. Put the open end of the injector line in a glass of water and watch the bubbles. Turn the engine slowly until the bubbles stop and check the timing mark. After tightening the pump recheck. This method is really more precise than it needs to be and although it may sound complicated it is very easy .
That sounds great! Ive gotta try that as I have no drip tool or spare injector lines............
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  #12  
Old 06-22-2007, 02:17 AM
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IP Timing

Sounds like you have it figured out....
Another way to think of the process is to think of a 2 stroke port fed engine piston that is coming up on the power stroke as the piston wall has just sealed the cylinder intake port on its way up the cylinder.....

Pretend you are turning a small 2 stroke engine crankshft very slowly....
Pretend the exhaust port does not exist for this description......
Pretend there is a compressed air hose blowing in the cylinder intake port...(this simulates the hand pumping)

If the spark plug was taken out and the piston was at the bottom of its travel and air is blowing in the cylinder intake port......
Air would come out of the spark plug hole......(no where else for it to go)...
This would be the fuel out of a drip tube in the procedure....

As the pison starts upward (crank is rotated)...air will continue to exit the spark plug hole as long as air is being blown in the intake port........

Until....the piston covers the intake port on its upward journey.......
At that instant....No more air out of spark plug hole....
And beginning of delivery or pressurization......In a real live diesel IP....

This is the magic mystical point all of this discussion is about....

If the spark plug were in place ...you could not know when the piston covers the intake port as no air could flow through the cylinder......

This is why the delivery valve innards are removed for this test....so fuel can flow from the hand pump into the IP chamber...into the plunger barrel ...up the fuel element and out of the drip tube......until the plunger comes up and stops the flow....this fuel stop is determined to be best at 24 BTDC.....hope this rambling makes some sense....
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Last edited by yellit; 06-22-2007 at 11:00 AM. Reason: more info
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  #13  
Old 06-22-2007, 06:01 AM
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Exclamation If you understoof how the FIP works in the first place.....

I am not trying to be an a$$ here, but if you took the time to read up on and understood just how the FIP works in the first place......then you would not have needed to go thru all of the problems that you have stated here....

There is presently a thread that has to do with getting 200hp from a 617.....within that thread there is a link to a Bosch paper/article that does a nice job of explaining how the FIP works.....look for the posting where someone comments "that's why Shorebilly says what he does" and just after that one, you will find my comments referencing a couple of pages and figures that do well to illustrate what the person here is trying to tell you via a 2 stroke engine.......no I won't just post the link, work for the information....I went to school for years to learn these little tidbits of knowledge.......

That was a good analogy...using the 2 stroke engine to illustrate the operation of a FIP.....one must understand how a 2 stroke engine works....

Every German technical manual that I have ever read stated in it's preface that it was written for the technician......or whatever level of education was required to understand said manual....

the following is a direct quote from one of my MB Service Manuals.....

"The information contained in this special publication is ordinarily issued by Mercedes-Benz of North America, Inc. in conjunction with supplementary service literature and special tools supplied only to it's authorized dealers. The repair and maintenance procedures outlined herein are intended for use by trained Mercedes-Benz service and dealership personnel. This manual can also be useful for Mercedes-Benz owners in diagnosing vehicle systems and performing repairs."

The bold type is MBUSA'a and not mine.....

Don't knock the tech manual because you have not the technical education equal to the level that those whom it was written for have !

I will state here, again....if you don't have a clue as to how the FIP actually works, you should not be fooling with it in the first place.....you are actively seeking trouble.....the only similarity that diesel and gasser engines have...is....the friggin pistons go up and down ......pretty much the rest is way different both in design and operation.....

SB
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  #14  
Old 06-22-2007, 06:44 AM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellit View Post
Sounds like you have it figured out....
Another way to think of the process is to think of a 2 stroke port fed engine piston that is coming up on the power stroke as the piston wall has just sealed the cylinder intake port on its way up the cylinder.....

Pretend the exhaust port does not exist for this description......

If the spark plug was taken out and the piston was at the bottom of its travel and air was blown in the cylinder intake port......Air would come out of the spark plug hole......

As the pison starts upward (crank is rotated)...air will continue to exit the spark plug hole as long as it is still being blown in the intake port........

Until....the piston covers the intake port on its upward journey.......
At that instant....No more air out of spark plug hole and beginning of delivery or pressurization......

If the spark plug were in place ...you could not know when the piston covers the intake port as no air could flow through the cylinder......

This is why the delivery valve innards are removed for this test....so fuel can flow from the hand pump into the IP chamber...into the plunger barrel ...up the fuel element and out of the drip tube......until the plunger comes up and stops the flow....this fuel stop is determined to be best at 24 BTDC.....hope this rambling makes some sense....
Thank you! Nice description that made the light bulb go on.
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  #15  
Old 06-22-2007, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellit View Post
Sounds like you have it figured out....
Another way to think of the process is to think of a 2 stroke port fed engine piston that is coming up on the power stroke as the piston wall has just sealed the cylinder intake port on its way up the cylinder.....

Pretend the exhaust port does not exist for this description......

If the spark plug was taken out and the piston was at the bottom of its travel and air was blown in the cylinder intake port......Air would come out of the spark plug hole......

As the pison starts upward (crank is rotated)...air will continue to exit the spark plug hole as long as it is still being blown in the intake port........

Until....the piston covers the intake port on its upward journey.......
At that instant....No more air out of spark plug hole and beginning of delivery or pressurization......

If the spark plug were in place ...you could not know when the piston covers the intake port as no air could flow through the cylinder......

This is why the delivery valve innards are removed for this test....so fuel can flow from the hand pump into the IP chamber...into the plunger barrel ...up the fuel element and out of the drip tube......until the plunger comes up and stops the flow....this fuel stop is determined to be best at 24 BTDC.....hope this rambling makes some sense....
Thank you...that really solidifies things.

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
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'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car
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