Two years of B100 in my 240D - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aersloat · #16 07-10-2007, 01:30 AM

I travel to Maui a few times a year for business. Last October I rented a diesel Jetta there. I was surprised to see that B100 was significantly cheaper than #2 and even cheaper than regular unleaded. When I filled up the lady at Pacific Biodiesel said that the State gives them some incentives and tax breaks. Makes sense. The main raw materials are right there on island (having already been imported and "consumed") and would just go into a landfill. In most parts of the country there is a secondary market for waste veg oil for animal feed. I don't think there is much of a market for that in Hawaii.

Anyone who has ever had a chicken katsu plate lunch knows how much waste veg oil there is in Hawaii just waiting to power your Mercedes.

The danger of course is in not "getting it." A planned biodiesel refinery on Maui is supposed to start producing fuel to burn for electricity. The planned oil source is virgin palm oil imported from, I believe, Indonesia. In my book the group planning that project is missing the point.

NC Benz · #17 07-10-2007, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island300D

Have to chime in here and agree with the first poster about his reasons for going biodiesel. We're kindred on this topic. Nothing is without consequence, but I have been so angry about bigoil/Iraq/BushCheney/ANWR/GlobalWarming and all the related rest for so long that anything whatsoever I can do to diminish my involvement with it I must do. I can't ignore my pocket book's role in the world. Neither can I allow myself to be as determined to subvert this whole destructive paradigm as I am and not do something! My sailboat 4 cylinder diesel has been B99 for many tankfuls and runs beautifully, and smells great. My newly purchased 300D (which we bought expressly to go biodiesel) is now on its first tank of B99. Lucky I can get B99 right from the pump here on our little island. Have already changed all fuel lines and filters and will change filters again in a tank or two.

I too notice the engines run much smoother on bio over dino. Cetane I guess.

Not at all concerned about power difference. I live on an island with a 45 mph speed limit! If less power is the price I have to pay to not give more money to _________ then that's great. I have no problem with taxes, only with my money being wasted on wars that will only bring us more wars and suffering and make the military industrial complex richer and richer. Checked your stocks recently? People are making heaps of money off this war, and it's not the families of the guys and gals getting killed and maimed.

Sorry, got on a rant...

Since this has gone into full political crap rant.....

Here is a dollar, buy a clue and EDUCATE yourself....

Do you know how much of the oil in Iraq goes to the US? About EIGHT percent. The rest goes to China etc. To say this is a war just about oil a total BS. Do you have any clue about the history of the Middle East?

I work with soldiers on Ft Bragg, training them to go over seas. I have talked to many that have come back. I find it very sad to hear stories of these fine people doing such wonderful things, and not a peep about it in the press. Things like opening up a school so that girls can go to school for the first time. Soldiers giving school THEIR fuel so that the kids can stay warm during classes. Soldiers handing out books, back packs, and other school items to kids.

When I see things like pictures of women riding in the trunks, because the men wont let them ride in the car, or murdered innocent people killed by al Queida for talking to the US, or village leaders getting killed, just for asking for medical help for their residents.....

Look at the big picture here! To say it is just about oil , you are missing so many other points. Or you can remain blinded by politics, and allow others to make you angry, and use their talking points.

Oh, and anyone that has a fairly decent mutual fund or 401k has benefited from the oil profits. That includes you, I, union workers, you grandmother..... All decent Mutual Funds are invested in oil.

RNCarl · #18 07-10-2007, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC Benz

Since this has gone into full political crap rant.....

Here is a dollar, buy a clue and EDUCATE yourself....

Do you know how much of the oil in Iraq goes to the US? About EIGHT percent. The rest goes to China etc. To say this is a war just about oil a total BS. Do you have any clue about the history of the Middle East?

I work with soldiers on Ft Bragg, training them to go over seas. I have talked to many that have come back. I find it very sad to hear stories of these fine people doing such wonderful things, and not a peep about it in the press. Things like opening up a school so that girls can go to school for the first time. Soldiers giving school THEIR fuel so that the kids can stay warm during classes. Soldiers handing out books, back packs, and other school items to kids.

When I see things like pictures of women riding in the trunks, because the men wont let them ride in the car, or murdered innocent people killed by al Queida for talking to the US, or village leaders getting killed, just for asking for medical help for their residents.....

Look at the big picture here! To say it is just about oil , you are missing so many other points. Or you can remain blinded by politics, and allow others to make you angry, and use their talking points.

Oh, and anyone that has a fairly decent mutual fund or 401k has benefited from the oil profits. That includes you, I, union workers, you grandmother..... All decent Mutual Funds are invested in oil.

Ahhh... so true

The war in Iraq wasn't ALL about oil.... there is dub-ya's ego and uncle Dick's war machine. Lest we not forget Rummy... ah-'er well let's just forget Rummy.

Starving children, mistreated women, insane dictators and genocide are excuses that don't wash with me... IF those were the reasons, we should have invaded Darfur, Rwanda, and Sudan long before Iraq.

I thought we invaded Iraq to find weapons of mass destruction and depose Saddam. Saddam is dead, there are no WMD's... isn't it "mission accomplished"? I don't remember preventing a civil war on the "to do" list... wasn't Saddam doing that?

And, yes I do know a little about the middle east. Are any of you old enough to remember the elementary school campaign in the late 60's that AMMACO started to "prove" that the arabs were our "friends"? I had a whole week of lessons about arab culture, was given "worry beads" and was told about how "good" it would be for the arab "people" to build oil fields and for the U.S. to "partner" with the region... wadda load of crap that was!

Lastly, our young people going over there ARE to be commended for the fine and heart felt work they are doing. I have two nephews there right now. The selfless acts that you point out that are being done by our troops shows the stark difference between our cultural norms and theirs. We honor all human life. Their culture honors a specific ideology of human life. That in and of itself is not wrong. What happens is when there is a conflict of interest. We want oil, and to minimize it by saying that it's not the ONLY reason we are over there is wrong too. As evidenced by our not invading the listed countries above.

BioBens · #19 07-10-2007, 09:50 AM

Big Oil IS manipulating biodiesel raw material prices and will until it has bioD production under its control. Commercial yellow grease aka WVO is twice its historic price and climbing. Methanol is twice its historic price and climbing.

WINGAS · #20 07-10-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWJ

Would you buy biodiesel if it came from OPEC?

It loses ALL its brilliance to me. Dont fret. In 20-25 years my half of NYS will be the rich half, as we grow enough canola to supply most of the rest of you folks. Love your Canadian brothers as well.

Cant grow fields of beans in the ME. Let them burn their fossil fuels. We got a place to heave our nitroglycerin if need be.

Yes SIR, I have a VERY BIG clue as to the history of the ME, and dont think for one moment the war in Iraq is ONLY about fuel. We can wax eloquently about how Iraq was the "Modern Arab State" in the late 50's early 60's until the Baathists took over. We can dream of having another ally ( as far fetched as that may seem now), in the Middle East.

But dont be confused by rhetoric and rationaizations, the strategic imperative and the reason they send men to die there for "peace", is oil. Hey Johnny Six Pack/ Soccer Mom on Cell Phone driving an Excursion dont mind , do they?

As empirical proof of its relevance, if peace , democracy and freedom are the main drivers of our foreign policy in the ME, then why the heck did we not/dont we not put our full backing behind a peaceful, secular Palestinian State? Ans, no oil and the Isrealis. Krpies man, they didnt even tell CIA to rig the damn election. NO OIL, WE DONT CARE. ( and we damn well should have and should.)

What if Palestine sat on a bundle of oil, would we have the same posture towards them as now? ?? ???

Just a little hueristic excersize there for y'all.

short ans : no, bio WOULD NOT have the same appeal. I dont dig it for the green effect although that's a great side payment, I dig it for the self reliant/ no red stain on my boys chest effect.

Still cant understand it. We send them over for oil security, and we dont even frlippin conserve our use of the resources as a "second front". Blind goddman lemmings we "preached at" to be.

JWJ · #21 07-10-2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RNCarl

We want oil, and to minimize it by saying that it's not the ONLY reason we are over there is wrong too. As evidenced by our not invading the listed countries above.

So why are we doing any public help at all in Iraq?

Honestly, if as you say we don't value their people why don't we just rule as Saddam did (or worse)?

Why don't we just name Iraq the next US state and be over it?

Everything I've read says we haven't extracted one barrel of oil out of Iraq since the start of the war.

WINGAS · #22 07-10-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWJ

So why are we doing any public help at all in Iraq?

Honestly, if as you say we don't value their people why don't we just rule as Saddam did (or worse)?

Why don't we just name Iraq the next US state and be over it?

Everything I've read says we haven't extracted one barrel of oil out of Iraq since the start of the war.

Yes , but if we didnt have an armed idiot next to our beloved Saudi's and their oil ports, we wouldnt have given a rats arse. Could've cruise missled the training facilities. should ahve, keeping their armed forces intact, ready to defend, and then wiped them all out en masse.

If we wanted to win. Versus setting up a semi-permanent military presence. Last time I read Land-Air War 2000, there was no chapter dedicated to POLICING an entire country.

Ah yes, the ethical juxtapositons of ethical Christians at war. Low intensity conflicts nail us, as we seem to tie our hands jsut before we get "in the ring".

GOD Speed to all our warriors in the valley of death, and may they remain Lord and Masters of it, and emerge triumphant. And may they return home and let the beautiful winds of this great land, wash all that taint and stink out of their souls adn let them live in peace again.

Regardless of the demogouges/trilateralists that put them there.

spark3542 · #23 07-10-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWJ

Then why is commercial B100 always in the same price area as traditional diesel. It should be much, much cheaper.

This would make all the biodiesel producers (including co-ops) more greedy than OPEC.

I didn't say that the price of BD should be much, much cheaper than Petro, I said BD is cheaper to make.

If someone hands me a gallon of veg oil and says "make it into biodiesel", I can, with $.80 worth of Methanol from Autozone, $.12 worth of lye from Lowe's, and a hotplate. If someone hands me a gallon of light sweet crude and says "make it into gasoline" I wouldn't even know where to start, but I am confident it would take significant capital, even to do it on a small scale. That is the barrier-to-entry.

The price of the raw veg oil vs the price of raw crude oil determine the selling price of the finished product, that is why commercial BD is the same price as petro. Commercial BD producers are not the greedy ones here.

Palangi · #24 07-10-2007, 11:07 AM

Thanks for proving my point guys.

WINGAS · #25 07-10-2007, 11:16 AM

Certainly, any time.

But it does point to why some of us are quite keen on biofuels. And the OD forum doesnt have the same captive readership.

Plus, I said., lil Blackie runs better on bio. And now I;m down to 15% or so, and the cetane stills keeps pinging under control. Some techie stuff, eh?

Yeah, I'd use biofuel from the Middle East, the real high cetane stuff made from tallow, brewed from the corpses of rabid islamists, run by Hercules, or better yet, Purdue chicken! Or some othe publicly traded company! With hoppers gracuiously filled by the US Marines. Payback for Beirut boys, in buckets full.

Ha, wonder if the old guard nazis had any plans for a mobile tallow rendering plant?

Tow that bastid behind a Marine EF adn stack it up like cordwood.

That kind of biodiesel, I'd pay double for. Hard road to peace, attrition is, but it gets you there.

F18 · #26 07-10-2007, 11:24 AM

Here is my two cents..........Biodiesel / biofuels are a step in the right direction for transportation energy independence and also a slight repreave from the impact of fossil fuels on the environment.

This is a country that has "freedom of choice" so don't patron a company that you feel is charging too much for BioDiesel! It is all about supply and demand in an open market. There is going to be a shake out period on the price until the market is fully developed......newer higher yield crops need to be developed (not just traditional soy beans!) for that purpose here in the US to meet the growing demand.

This is the US and not an equatorial country lead by a man named Victor Chavez who dictated the changes necessary to propel his country into a Biofueled economy. Here in the US...."a developed nation"....the individual consumer will have to pay for the change and the change will be slow!

csp97 · #27 07-10-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWJ

Then why is commercial B100 always in the same price area as traditional diesel. It should be much, much cheaper.

This would make all the biodiesel producers (including co-ops) more greedy than OPEC.

Hold on here. Biodiesel is not cheap to make. Nothing is cheaper than petroleum, that's why we depend on it so much.

Soybean oil, the cheapest vege oil, is $0.35/pound which equals about $2.70/gallon. Next add about $0.60/gallon for processing and you end up with $3.30/gallon. Now add the taxes which are about $0.45/gallon depending on what state you're in and it's up to $3.75/gallon. This is before salaries or profits are made.

The govt gives back a $1/gallon credit which is the only thing making it competitive with D2. Wholesale D2 is $2.16 on the gulf today.

F18 · #28 07-10-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csp97

Hold on here. Biodiesel is not cheap to make. Nothing is cheaper than petroleum, that's why we depend on it so much.

Soybean oil, the cheapest vege oil, is $0.35/pound which equals about $2.70/gallon. Next add about $0.60/gallon for processing and you end up with $3.30/gallon. Now add the taxes which are about $0.45/gallon depending on what state you're in and it's up to $3.75/gallon. This is before salaries or profits are made.

The govt gives back a $1/gallon credit which is the only thing making it competitive with D2. Wholesale D2 is $2.16 on the gulf today.

Yep, expensive to produce in the US if we are going to rely on soybeans for biodiesel and corn for ethonal which only have a net yield of about 10% over the amount of energy needed to produce the fuels. Because of the climate in South America/ Venezuela they have the luxury of using crops that can have a net yield of +300%. I am not sure if we will ever be able to get yields that high no matter what we use or how we do it.......so our prices reflect our low net energy yields.

WINGAS · #29 07-10-2007, 12:03 PM

fwiw, canola beans produce the highest yield of oil/bshl. Still compete somewhat with the food supply, while something like switch grass is ideal.

I'm hopeful for Uncle Sam to be running huge hemp farms!

Kidding, of course....

patbob · #30 07-10-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spark3542

Even if Big Oil tried to corner the market and buy up all BD producers, there would be a cottage industry to compete, because the barriers to entry are minimal. We, as individuals or small communities, do not have the ability to extract oil from the ground, but we do have the ability to plant crops.

Making BD is much, much cheaper than extracting and refining petroleum.

Nonsense. The true cost of pretty much anything that big business gets into is meeting all the laws and regulations. If big oil want's in, they'll buy all the large bioD producers, then lobby their hearts out to have your friendly governemnt and mine pass all sorts of laws and regulations to raise the barrier to entry. Believe it or not, we, as consumers, want it that way, and they'll be more than happy to go along with it.

Step 1: get standards passed for the product that take expensive equipment (and preferably highly skilled personnel) to certify to ensure consistent product,and we'll all applaud.
Step 2: get laws preventing anybody from selling anything that doesn't meet the standards so nobody has to worry about ruining their car with bad bioD, and we'll all applaud.
Step 3: if a grassroots production community develops that is a serious threat, and maybe even if it isn't but just on principal, get laws passed making it illegal to produce such a dangerous and flamable substance on private premises. We won't exactly applaud, but it'll already be too late.

We all want steps 1 and 2 to occur, but after step 1 happens, steps 2 and 3 follow no matter what, hence my statement that we want the little guy squeezed out.