Honda Diesel.. again - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

DieselAddict · #46 08-02-2007, 03:17 AM

I don't understand all the animosity toward FWD vehicles. I have no complaints about my Jetta in that department. Plus it's a better snow car too except on steep downhills. Yes I know how to handle a RWD vehicle in snow, but it generally takes more work to keep stable than a FWD vehicle. That's just my opinion though.

#47 08-02-2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

I don't understand all the animosity toward FWD vehicles.

No animosity, I've owned a couple and driven quite a few. They are better than RWD in the snow, but I've never driven one with acceptable handling in the dry (VWs do generally have better feel than the ricers). If you live in a cold climate and only own one car, a FWD might be an acceptable compromise. Personally, I drive RWD cars and keep a 4WD winter beater for snow days.

Gurkha · #48 08-02-2007, 08:52 AM

I know quite a few Japanese FWD cars which will handsomely outhandle the VW, the Prelude, Acura, Civic Type R as well as the unsung humble Mazda Protege, being and ex VW Gulf GTi16v owner, I can well attest to this fact.

#49 08-02-2007, 09:08 AM

Actually, I was referring to road feel. Every ricer I've ever driven feels like I'm driving by remote control, much too light with no feedback (steering, throttle, brakes, clutch, shifter, everything). I just don't care about them enough to bother getting used to it.

tankdriver · #50 08-02-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

You cannot do power slides, you cannot do a proper doughnut, most push like crazy through a good corner.

Neither of those is particularly fast. Or done in daily driving.

I autocross my Prelude (FWD), and I've done 3 autocross schools (Porsche club, BMW club, and Evolution). At all three, multiple instructors asked me why more people don't autocross the prelude because it handled so well (no camber adjustment). And the now defunct Integra Type R was a way better handler than the Prelude. Both lent parts to newer Hondas, so they must've done something right.

That said, there's no way the FWD Prelude holds a candle to a RWD S2000. But I'm pretty sure most people don't drive like they're on an autocross course either.

Gurkha · #51 08-02-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

there's no way the FWD Prelude holds a candle to a RWD S2000. But I'm pretty sure most people don't drive like they're on an autocross course either.

Very true, the Acura is the Civic Type R, excellent handler for a FWD, the S-2000 is just too sweet, pretty close to NSX when pushed.

Hatterasguy · #52 08-02-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

I will take a AWD over FWD any day, the STI and Evo has enough HP for me to take on V8 and 12, wouldn't mind a V8 or V12 if it comes my way though.

I have raced STI's before, maybe the driver didn't know how to shift but we took him...in a Chevy truck.

Gurkha · #53 08-02-2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I have raced STI's before, maybe the driver didn't know how to shift but we took him...in a Chevy truck.

Most likely, it needs proper shifting as it has little bottom end, once in powerband, its a beast, have taken quite a few 911 and V8 MB with my friend's STI.

Hatterasguy · #54 08-02-2007, 12:58 PM

They are nice cars though, I'm sure there a blast to drive. Not my style though, they lack the punch of a big displacement engine.

They are like the Jetta 1.8T's that I hate. You have to rev the piss out of them to get anywhere.

The truck that took the STI...by a good margin... has a 8.1L V8, Bullydog tuning, exhuast, intake, etc...it was a wide margin.

My cousin almost took one with his 330CI, the STI got him, the driver knew how to shift.

In my area they are all owned by kids that don't know how to shift.

SwampYankee · #55 08-02-2007, 01:27 PM

I can't say that I've got a lot of driving experience with the newer performance FWD cars so I'm sure they're a bit more refined nowadays. My father had an '89 Chrysler LeBaron GTS Turbo (the only vehicle he's ever bought new, he'll never buy a car by a foreign make) and with only 146 hp the thing had enough torque steer to make things more interesting than one would like at times. He drove the hell out of it for 5 years/150K miles and sold it to a kid who put on another 70K.

My wife's 235 hp Odyssey can pull like crazy when you get into it, but I'd have to imagine these FWD performance cars have means of compensating for that. They can't compensate for crappy shifting, though

Hatterasguy · #56 08-02-2007, 04:07 PM

The worst torque steer I have ever felt was on the last gen Maxima. 270hp to the front wheels, is a bad idea. Such a shame because that Nissan V6 is sweet, makes tons of torque, which is the problem... The Maxima needs AWD or RWD, you simply can't put that kind of power through the front wheels.

tankdriver · #57 08-02-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

The truck that took the STI...by a good margin... has a 8.1L V8, Bullydog tuning, exhuast, intake, etc...it was a wide margin.

My cousin almost took one with his 330CI, the STI got him, the driver knew how to shift.

That truck engine is literally twice the size of the STI's.

Displacement's fun for thay throw you back in your seat feel, but I prefer the torque curve of the VTEC Hondas. It [power] just keeps going up. Most [power] curves flatten out. That was one of the disappointments for me with the Suby when I drove it.

You can't get rid of torque steer, that's for sure. Mine's not bad, I've gotten used to it.

Ara T. · #58 08-02-2007, 06:35 PM

You prefer the torque curve of a VTEC Honda to that of a big V8 or turbocharged flat 4? Drive the S2000... floor it... no torque... no torque... no torque, ahh there it is at 7000 RPM, a whole 160 foot-lb, uh oh time to shift soon... etc

The vtec engines are good at what they do (good HP out of a small engine) but torque curve?

bullhonkey.

tankdriver · #59 08-02-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ara T.

You prefer the torque curve of a VTEC Honda to that of a big V8 or turbocharged flat 4? Drive the S2000... floor it... no torque... no torque... no torque, ahh there it is at 7000 RPM, a whole 160 foot-lb, uh oh time to shift soon... etc

The vtec engines are good at what they do (good HP out of a small engine) but torque curve?

bullhonkey.

The Honda VTECs have nearly flat torque curves, which is ideal.
http://homepage.mac.com/matt.kramer/Archives/Horsepower%20vs.%20Torque.html
Skip down to the further examples, where he compares an NSX to a Porsche 968.

Look at this torque curve from this article about the electric TESLA car. Electrics have ideal torque and power curves. Flat torque curve (red), steady slope power (light blue)
http://www.slate.com/id/2154425/fr/rss/

Now look at this one with 4 S200s on it. Torque curve is flat, power curve a steady incline.:

Hatterasguy · #60 08-02-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

That truck engine is literally twice the size of the STI's.

Displacement's fun for thay throw you back in your seat feel, but I prefer the torque curve of the VTEC Hondas. It [power] just keeps going up. Most [power] curves flatten out. That was one of the disappointments for me with the Suby when I drove it.

You can't get rid of torque steer, that's for sure. Mine's not bad, I've gotten used to it.

I like lots of torque down low, like a Mercedes turbo charged V12. 500ft pounds at like 1,200rpm. Because thats where you need it, and thats where it counts.

Or that amazing Rolls Royce V8 that makes mountains of torque right off idle, no waiting.

Honda 4 bangers have like 200ft pounds on a good day, thats not a lot by any measure.