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  #1  
Old 09-09-2007, 02:45 PM
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85 300d inital start help...

hello, i have a question on a 85 300d that i hope someone can help me with..

i got sucked into doing a engine change on a 85 300d that was run out of oil.

the replacement engine was from a 81 300sd with low miles, BUT the fuel pump, turbo and such was different since it lacked the 3 wire plug and all that fun stuff. in the end the only "new pieces" used was the block and head, the pan was cracked, engine mounts broken and all kinds of what did i get myself into type of stuff..

when i went to reinstall the pump i had the cam on 0 via the mark in the cam/carrier, the crank was at the peg, i never took apart the timming chain so those should be close to where it was originally. the fuel pump i positioned at the 0 marks on the teeth/cast in area.

its got all new gaskets/glowplugs

i finally got the thing all reinstalled, tried the drip test with a cut injector line, got 1sec/drip (full load wired open) that way but will not start... thought about it and think that the inkector line id is smaller then the benz tool and would affect the drip so...

so i tried this other method i heard of, blow into the #1 injector port with line on filter loose, at 26* btc no flow, 24*btc flow @ the crank marks but still does not start.

ive done way too many vw diesels to think that the timming is why it will not start. i have fuel flow thru the injector lines, aka lines loose fuel comes out when cranking, turns over real nice, compression seems good and the glow plugs have power before and during cranking.

i have thought about the vac lines on the pump being installed wrong, but i doubt i would have flow to the injectors. i have removed the lines to be safe with no go still.

what am i missing? is there a better method for the fuel pump timming? vw dial indicator is so much nicer.. LOL..
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  #2  
Old 09-10-2007, 03:18 AM
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no one? ive looked thru the stuff you have posted in how toos.. but i canto find any info on what i seek..
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  #3  
Old 09-11-2007, 01:11 AM
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Did you make sure the cam lobes were pointing up when you timed the pump? If they were pointing down your pump is way out of time.
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  #4  
Old 09-11-2007, 04:37 PM
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i used the notch on the gear to the cam carrier... but i guess ill have to double check that
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  #5  
Old 09-11-2007, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRSMP5 View Post
i used the notch on the gear to the cam carrier... but i guess ill have to double check that
I guarantee you're 180 off on the ip. If you're anywhere near correct timing on the cam and ip, then it should at the very least start.
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  #6  
Old 09-12-2007, 12:43 AM
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Since you used the cam marks you are probably okay. The primary difficulty is more likely to arise if you had used the crank pulley and ignored the position of the cam lobes or cam marks.
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2007, 12:53 AM
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Are your glow plugs really heating? I know they are new but is their anything else in the glow circuit down. Dash indicator light like volkswagon are not conclusive evidence.
If they really glow it sounds like a compression test may be in order. Generally it sounds like you know what you are doing. Valve clearance ok? Fuel output from all injector Lines?
A used engine of the 617 type that has sat around for a long time can be hard to initially start. I suspect rings rust a little and might stick in grooves. Usually recover with a little running.
I have always been a little cynical about low milage used older engines anyways. Their are too many available. Or the claimed milage is based on defective or tampered odometers. Most older volkswagon diesel display the correct total milage. Not so with these older mercedes diesel cars. Let us know what it was when you find it.

Last edited by barry123400; 09-12-2007 at 01:12 AM.
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  #8  
Old 09-12-2007, 12:55 AM
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The IP is installed on the 24 degrees BTDC not as you did at 0 (TDC) or did I misunderstand?
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  #9  
Old 09-12-2007, 01:27 AM
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He got some kind of drip indication at 24 degrees. Should have been close enough for a start if all else is well. Strange method though.
He has low post numbers on our site and probably is not too familiar with older diesel benz engines.
Try to find a 25 year old diesel volkswagon engine with true low milage. It's even harder with the 617 engines I suspect. Unless properly rebuilt in recent past.
Once he is sure he has active glow plugs he might consider spraying some wd 40 into the centre of the air filter and see if the engine at least runs a little. If not go right to the compression check. It is not advisable to use either or quick start for this test. Apparently it is felt that it can damage the engine.

Last edited by barry123400; 09-12-2007 at 01:33 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-12-2007, 10:51 AM
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"when i went to reinstall the pump i had the cam on 0 via the mark in the cam/carrier, the crank was at the peg, i never took apart the timming chain so those should be close to where it was originally. the fuel pump i positioned at the 0 marks on the teeth/cast in area."


This sounds like the IP was installed at TDC , where the cam mark was lined up also. I dont see how he got a "drip' at 24 BTDC
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #11  
Old 09-12-2007, 07:54 PM
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used testlight on glowplug when cranking and prestart so glowplugs have power..

fuel pump was installed at tdc as the book i was using said too.. turnignthe fuel pump got the drip at 24*btdc and yes low post count as i did not knwo of this place when i was in the process of the build..

engine been in a wrecking yard for years, 81 was hit so hard the engine mounts were broken off, the aluminum section of the oil pan was also broke.. lots of fun, but speedo was like 130k on it..

compression is non inclusive till started due to amoutn of time it sat too.. i kinda worry about carbon frozen rings due to time it sat not used.. alot of carbon in the head ports.. but no rust colors on the old glow plugs or anything.. injectors/lines were full of fuel.. kinda been wondering if the injectors could be stuck shut..

and yes i did not have the crank timming stuff installed when i did the pump install, i used the cam mark so i knew i had it as close to tdc as posible.. vw could be on 1 or 4 via crank mark.. not mb though.. LOL.. so when i installed the crank pully stuff i made sure it was close to tdc which it is about 4*btdc when cam says 0.. so cam is advanced vs the crank mark.. bu this is before i learned of th edifferent key ways and such for the cam, and chain backlash.. like i said.. had a real lack of info till i was told of this place. lots of knowledge here..

ive been doing vw diesel stuff for years.. LOL.. lots of conversions, played with bio and such.. so i understand the auto diesel pretty well.. why i assume my issue is a fuel timming issue.. i tryed some penetration fluid, not wd40, as i did not have any on hand.. did not start.. but it was not wd40 either

Last edited by CRSMP5; 09-12-2007 at 08:05 PM.
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  #12  
Old 09-14-2007, 12:45 AM
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Sitting for years might need a pull start. Would not be the first example of this engine type requiring it after long sitting. At least their automatics can be pull started. Read about the speed required and method in the archives.
Again if it will not light off temporaily with glow plugs and a shot of wd 40 thats about the only hope you have. I assume no stuck open valves from sitting or you would hear the uneven compression.
Also if the car has a block heater heat it up for a few hours before the attempted start either by towing or starter. The additional heat sometimes makes some difference. To loosen up the rings a soaking with marvel mystery oil will usually raise the compression quite a lot. It's cheap as well. Again combine the soaking with the block heater for a few days to aid the chemical reaction going on.

Last edited by barry123400; 09-14-2007 at 12:55 AM.
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  #13  
Old 09-15-2007, 04:04 PM
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i have a question..

when i installed the fuel pump, i did it at tdc on cam mark.. which is about 3*btc on the crank.. this was with the pump aka tooth lined up with the notch in the pump.. was i suppposed to put this in at 23-25*btc not at 0

thanks for the pull start tip.. did not relize a mb would do that with a auto.. may have to try that..
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  #14  
Old 09-15-2007, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRSMP5 View Post
i have a question..

when i installed the fuel pump, i did it at tdc on cam mark.. which is about 3*btc on the crank.. this was with the pump aka tooth lined up with the notch in the pump.. was i suppposed to put this in at 23-25*btc not at 0
"Injector pump" (IP).... the fuel pump is the little pump below your "primer' pump. Just to clarify.

As mentioned earlier, The IP should be installed at the 24 degree BTDC mark on the crank. Then the engine rotated to TDC (compression stroke, # 1 cam lobs up) where the cam mark is in line.
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #15  
Old 09-18-2007, 01:34 AM
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thanks.. i guess i need to pull it off and try again.. but that will do it..
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