ESP CJ-4 Oil Standard - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

shertex · #1 09-14-2007, 12:04 PM

Noticed on AVLube site that Delvac 1 that they ship meets CJ-4 standards but Turbo Diesel Truck does not. Both are the same stuff, but the formulation is changing to meet the CJ-4 standard. (FYI, AVLube has lowered their price on their stock of TDT to make room for the new stuff.)

Does this new standard offer any advantages at all for older diesels?

Some have expressed concerns that this newer formulation may NOT be the ideal choice for older diesels, that there may be some downsides. This seems hard to believe, but I thought I'd at least raise the question.

Thanks.

uberwgn · #2 09-14-2007, 12:44 PM

Dave, I'd stick with the original formula, not the ESP stuff that was just released.

FWIW, Advance Auto Part has a special on it (M1 TDT 5W40) for the month of Sept @ $4.98/qt. I suspect it's the ci-4+ flavor.

DieselAddict · #3 09-14-2007, 12:50 PM

I suspect eventually D1 and TDT will both meet the same spec. Right now we're in the middle of the transition from CI-4+ to CJ-4. Only time (and some used oil analyses) will tell whether CJ-4 is any good, but I believe it will be good if not better than the old stuff. I'm already using CJ-4 Red Line oil in my E300D but I haven't done any testing yet. So far so good.

Hatterasguy · #4 09-14-2007, 01:51 PM

It doesn't matter for our cars. If you have a brand new Cummins, or CDI it matters.

Both specs greatly excede anything MB spec'd for our engines back in the day.

Palangi · #5 09-15-2007, 12:07 PM

Delvac 1 and M1 Turbo Diesel Truck oil may have been the same thing at one time, but it looks like they may not be the same any longer.

There was a thread on this a while back, with a bunch of links. One of the links led to a page of voa's of various oils. You could easily see the difference between the two on that page. I have the link saved on my old laptop. I will dig it up and post it later.

Basically, the feds are trying to reduce the amount of zinc compounds and phosphorus, because they poison the catalysts on new trucks so equipped. The function of the zinc compounds (ZDDP) and phosphorus was protecting against wear in highly loaded parts (meaning camshafts).

For post 1986 MB's with hydraulic lifters, no problem. For 617 and earlier engines with solid lifters, I think it is a valid concern, although probably not life threatening to a well maintained engine.

Interestingly, a source for supplemental zinc and phosphorus is readily available. It is STP Oil Treatment. I don't remember offhand if it is the red or blue bottle, but, as I said earlier, I will dig up the link.

Palangi · #6 09-16-2007, 11:28 AM

Here we go:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

About a quarter of the way down the page you can see the Delvac1 and the Mobil1 Truck SUV. If you look at the phosphorus and zinc,you can clearly see that they are significantly different.

Towards the bottom of the table, locate the STP products. You can see that the STP red has mucho phosphorus and zinc.

Draw your own conclusions.

DieselAddict · #7 09-16-2007, 01:22 PM

From the link above: "The performance of these zinc-free anti-wear additives has only been proven with ultra-low sulphur fuels, not readily available in the United States with exception of new diesel fuels since 2007."
That's really all we as diesel owners want to know. I'm not concerned about wear in air-cooled Porsche engines.

I'm definitely gonna do some used oil analyses before even considering mixing zinc and phosphorus additives with my oil.

Palangi · #8 09-16-2007, 07:11 PM

Yeppers, I won't be adding STP either, but I will be switching to authentic Delvac1.

Camshafts with solid followers are highly loaded regardless if it is a 617 or an air cooled glorified VW.

Hatterasguy · #9 09-16-2007, 08:02 PM

Porches run hotter and at much higher RPM's.

Palangi · #10 09-16-2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Porches run hotter and at much higher RPM's.

Porches are usually attached to the house. They don't move very fast at all.

dkveuro · #11 09-16-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

Porches are usually attached to the house. They don't move very fast at all.

POR(C)Sheeerrrr.....dadgummit!
http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa020401b.htm

.

#12 09-16-2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkveuro

POR(C)Sheeerrrr.....dadgummit!
http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa020401b.htm

.

Remember the spelling like this:

Parts On Requisition, Should Come Here Eventually.

dkveuro · #13 09-16-2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Remember the spelling like this:

Parts On Requisition, Should Come Here Eventually.

About sums up Parts Dept'.

"Mommy, mommy....is daddy dead ?"..... " No dear, he's at the Porsche parts counter."

.

Hatterasguy · #14 09-16-2007, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

Porches are usually attached to the house. They don't move very fast at all.

My spelling sucks, but that is correct!

Skippy · #15 12-07-2007, 07:22 PM

I just read an article in Mopar Enthusiast (not available on line unfortunately) about the effects of SM-rated oils in old gassers with solid lifter cams. The gist of it was that SM-oils are not good to use with any flat-tappet cam (such as those in our OM616 and 617 engines), because of the sharply reduced amount of ZDDP.

The article stated that diesel-rated oil is an improvement, but that the ZDDP levels in it are coming down in the CJ-4 oils (which we knew) and may not be quite enough, at least for big-block gas engines making 6500+ rpm with 700 lbs of valve-spring pressure. It was also stated that GM's engine oil supplement (break-in stuff) was a good source of additional ZDDP, but that it has been discontinued.

It was also mentioned that it is possible to get too much ZDDP in your oil and that this can contribute to piston wear and ring failure from deposits in the ring area.