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  #1  
Old 09-14-2007, 08:17 PM
muleears's Avatar
Old MB Driver
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Windsor, VA
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Replaced plastic lines on 606, still sucking air!

I took the car in because it was nearly impossible to start when warm, most of the clear fuel lines had large bubbles in them.
So I spent almost $500 having my indy replace all the plastic fuel lines and O rings on my 98 W210. They also replaced the heat exchanger(?) and fittings.

Now, the next day, it is doing the same thing. Needless to say I'm not impressed with my indy's diagnostic ability, but what else could it be? He thinks it is leaking air farther back toward the tank. I wish I could post a pic but he has the car. I know the line from the filter to the banjo bolt on the back of the IP had air, come to think of it I think three had air. Once the car started it ran fine except for hesitation on hard acceleration. When shut off the fuel would drain out of the lines quickly. Once it started there was little noticeable air in the lines. Where do I go from here I haven't got any more Franklins to spare

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Muleears
'07 E320 Bluetec 133K my DD
'04 Jaguar XJ8 VDP, 34K
'10 Hyundai Accent 60K Grocery Getter
'02 VW Golf soon to be on the road again
'97 E300 Diesel Son's DD
'61 VERY tolerant wife

Hampton Roads, VA USA

Gone but not forgotten:
'67 250S 95K
'86 300SDL
'87 300D Turbo, 364K! R.I.P.
'98 E300 Turbodiesel, 213K
'02 S420, 164K
'01 Prius 138K
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  #2  
Old 09-14-2007, 08:32 PM
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The bango bolt on the side of the IP (between it and the block) has an o-ring. Dosnt leak often, but can. Mine is prob OEM at 216K cause I know I've never changed it.

The line from the thermo/heat exchanger drains back at shutdown. That is normal.

Again, I would suggest looking at the pre-filter. Where the fuel line attaches to the top of it, as well as at the seal of the o-ring beneath it. That is the MOST common culprit. Next I'd look at the main filter bolt and it's oring.

Did he repalce the shutoff valve o-ring too?
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N. Calif. & Boca Chica, Panama

09' E320 Bluetec 77k (USA)
09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)
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  #3  
Old 09-14-2007, 08:51 PM
muleears's Avatar
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I replaced the prefilter O ring and filter bolt O ring myself a couple weeks ago. I believe the O ring on the banjo bolt was replaced also. There are no fuel leaks only air leaking in.
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Muleears
'07 E320 Bluetec 133K my DD
'04 Jaguar XJ8 VDP, 34K
'10 Hyundai Accent 60K Grocery Getter
'02 VW Golf soon to be on the road again
'97 E300 Diesel Son's DD
'61 VERY tolerant wife

Hampton Roads, VA USA

Gone but not forgotten:
'67 250S 95K
'86 300SDL
'87 300D Turbo, 364K! R.I.P.
'98 E300 Turbodiesel, 213K
'02 S420, 164K
'01 Prius 138K
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  #4  
Old 09-14-2007, 08:54 PM
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Assuming the mech replaced all the fule lines with new that leaves only the o-ring behind the shutoff valve, the lines leading from the tank ot the fuel thermo (that you just repalced) and the delivery valve oring and crush washers.

Ive never hear of the lines from the tank leaking since I've been around the forum.

Air can leak into a smaller hole that fuel can leak out of.
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N. Calif. & Boca Chica, Panama

09' E320 Bluetec 77k (USA)
09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)

Last edited by TMAllison; 09-14-2007 at 09:02 PM.
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  #5  
Old 09-15-2007, 07:59 AM
muleears's Avatar
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If the delivery valves were leaking wouldn't they be leaking fuel? There are no fuel leaks. Would it still run ok with bad DV's? I don't know if the O ring at the shutoff valve was replaced.
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Muleears
'07 E320 Bluetec 133K my DD
'04 Jaguar XJ8 VDP, 34K
'10 Hyundai Accent 60K Grocery Getter
'02 VW Golf soon to be on the road again
'97 E300 Diesel Son's DD
'61 VERY tolerant wife

Hampton Roads, VA USA

Gone but not forgotten:
'67 250S 95K
'86 300SDL
'87 300D Turbo, 364K! R.I.P.
'98 E300 Turbodiesel, 213K
'02 S420, 164K
'01 Prius 138K
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  #6  
Old 09-15-2007, 08:29 AM
deltajetfixer's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muleears View Post
If the delivery valves were leaking wouldn't they be leaking fuel? There are no fuel leaks. Would it still run ok with bad DV's? I don't know if the O ring at the shutoff valve was replaced.
Probably, the delivery valves would be leaking fuel if they were leaking. I can't say for certain as I haven't experimented with them, but if you wanted to be %100 sure, replace the o-rings there to rule them out.

I can't really visualize them sucking in air from a leak and not having at least a weep of fuel accompanying it.

No, it wouldn't run well with bad delivery valves.

I doubt the o-ring at the shutoff valve was replaced as it necessitates removal of the valve from the IP body. It is attached with two Torx bolts: BE ADVISED that they have a tendency to "round out" when being removed. Try shooting them with some PB blaster or other suitable penetrant and then clean the heads out with some solvent so your Torx bit can get in there.

I had to drill the head on one of mine and use a screw extractor to remove it. I went back with metric allen head bolts I found at Home Depot for @$1.00
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Last edited by deltajetfixer; 09-15-2007 at 08:35 AM.
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  #7  
Old 09-16-2007, 05:37 AM
muleears's Avatar
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They are going to put it on the smoke machine (leak detector) tomorrow and see what they can find. How does this work? Do they evacuate the fuel system then put smoke in under pressure to locate the leak?
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Muleears
'07 E320 Bluetec 133K my DD
'04 Jaguar XJ8 VDP, 34K
'10 Hyundai Accent 60K Grocery Getter
'02 VW Golf soon to be on the road again
'97 E300 Diesel Son's DD
'61 VERY tolerant wife

Hampton Roads, VA USA

Gone but not forgotten:
'67 250S 95K
'86 300SDL
'87 300D Turbo, 364K! R.I.P.
'98 E300 Turbodiesel, 213K
'02 S420, 164K
'01 Prius 138K
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2007, 12:32 AM
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
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Smoke and mirrors? I have not heard of this test for fuel systems. That in itself does not suprise me except for being curious as to how they do it.
You also cannot know everything.
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2007, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltajetfixer View Post

I doubt the o-ring at the shutoff valve was replaced as it necessitates removal of the valve from the IP body. It is attached with two Torx bolts: BE ADVISED that they have a tendency to "round out" when being removed. Try shooting them with some PB blaster or other suitable penetrant and then clean the heads out with some solvent so your Torx bit can get in there.

I had to drill the head on one of mine and use a screw extractor to remove it. I went back with metric allen head bolts I found at Home Depot for @$1.00
Are you positive that they were "Torx"? M/B is fond of using 12 point fasteners which take more torque than a standard six point socket head cap screw. If you use Torx tools on the 12 point fastener...........you certainly stripped the head.

The same situation occurred on the the rear bolt for the diff on the '86. The Torx almost stripped it and the 12 point removed it with ease.
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  #10  
Old 09-19-2007, 09:09 AM
muleears's Avatar
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Location: Windsor, VA
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Here's the latest on my sad saga of my leaky 606: Mechanic has replaced all fuel lines and O rings, including one at the shut off valve. Talked to diesel experts at Mercedes dealership in Tysons Corners VA. The only other thing they pointed out that it might be was a check valve on the banjo bolt on the block side of the IP or a check valve in the IP itself. That last possibility scares the sh.. out of me. Fortunatly they have told me they are not charging me for this work as they have not fixed anything yet.

Symptoms of the car are: Starts beautifuly cold or after sitting for an hour or more. If starting is attempted shortly after stopping it either won't start or is very difficult.

Wish me luck.
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Muleears
'07 E320 Bluetec 133K my DD
'04 Jaguar XJ8 VDP, 34K
'10 Hyundai Accent 60K Grocery Getter
'02 VW Golf soon to be on the road again
'97 E300 Diesel Son's DD
'61 VERY tolerant wife

Hampton Roads, VA USA

Gone but not forgotten:
'67 250S 95K
'86 300SDL
'87 300D Turbo, 364K! R.I.P.
'98 E300 Turbodiesel, 213K
'02 S420, 164K
'01 Prius 138K
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  #11  
Old 09-19-2007, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muleears View Post
Here's the latest on my sad saga of my leaky 606: Mechanic has replaced all fuel lines and O rings, including one at the shut off valve. Talked to diesel experts at Mercedes dealership in Tysons Corners VA. The only other thing they pointed out that it might be was a check valve on the banjo bolt on the block side of the IP or a check valve in the IP itself. That last possibility scares the sh.. out of me. Fortunatly they have told me they are not charging me for this work as they have not fixed anything yet.

Symptoms of the car are: Starts beautifuly cold or after sitting for an hour or more. If starting is attempted shortly after stopping it either won't start or is very difficult.

Wish me luck.
Based upon your description of the conditions you have experienced I would lean toward either the shut-off valve itself being defective or possibly K40 Relay. I can't see how air in the lines would cause the problem you describe. Air in the lines would more likely cause it to be hard to start after sitting for a while but would restart with ease shortly after shut-down. The shut-off valves themselves can crack with hairline fractures and cause leaks and if they fail to open properly can cause the engine to be hard to start...the part itself is only around $100 and can be changed in 10 minutes so it is not that costly to test the theory.
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  #12  
Old 09-19-2007, 02:21 PM
muleears's Avatar
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Thanks NHdoc, the air appears in the lines within a few seconds of shutdown, less than 30 i'm sure. It won't start with ease immediately after shutdown as the bubbles are already present. What would the K40 do?
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Muleears
'07 E320 Bluetec 133K my DD
'04 Jaguar XJ8 VDP, 34K
'10 Hyundai Accent 60K Grocery Getter
'02 VW Golf soon to be on the road again
'97 E300 Diesel Son's DD
'61 VERY tolerant wife

Hampton Roads, VA USA

Gone but not forgotten:
'67 250S 95K
'86 300SDL
'87 300D Turbo, 364K! R.I.P.
'98 E300 Turbodiesel, 213K
'02 S420, 164K
'01 Prius 138K
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  #13  
Old 09-19-2007, 02:41 PM
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Location: Walnut Creek, CA & 1,150 miles S of Key West
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Cal - The K40 provides the electrical signal to the S/O valve to open and close it in addition to numerous other devices. It does the same basic job that the OVP did.

The S/O valve might be a bit more than Marty suggested but is probably the right choice at this point. Have you expirienced any delayed shut down where engine runs on .5 sec after the key is turned off? Generally, but not always, if the S/O is malfunctioning (delayed shutoff, failing to open/close, etc.) a CEL is generated.
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N. Calif. & Boca Chica, Panama

09' E320 Bluetec 77k (USA)
09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)
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  #14  
Old 09-19-2007, 03:29 PM
deltajetfixer's Avatar
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
Are you positive that they were "Torx"? M/B is fond of using 12 point fasteners which take more torque than a standard six point socket head cap screw. If you use Torx tools on the 12 point fastener...........you certainly stripped the head.

The same situation occurred on the the rear bolt for the diff on the '86. The Torx almost stripped it and the 12 point removed it with ease.
Positive as a Proton!!!

The bolts holding the fuel shutoff valve on were Torx. They were 6-point.

12 point are 12 point...right?

My eyes aren't that great, but not that bad!

I'd like to think I can still recognize an old "triple square!"
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  #15  
Old 09-19-2007, 05:58 PM
muleears's Avatar
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TM, No delay at shutdown at all and no CEL or codes. Mech. called this afternoon to tell me it is either the check valve at the banjo on the back of the IP or the fuel pump. I'm sure the checkvalve isn't too expensive (relatively speaking) but he tells me the fuel pump is $1300 Rusty and Phil don't list them but I'm getting a price. Any additional input is appreciated.

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Muleears
'07 E320 Bluetec 133K my DD
'04 Jaguar XJ8 VDP, 34K
'10 Hyundai Accent 60K Grocery Getter
'02 VW Golf soon to be on the road again
'97 E300 Diesel Son's DD
'61 VERY tolerant wife

Hampton Roads, VA USA

Gone but not forgotten:
'67 250S 95K
'86 300SDL
'87 300D Turbo, 364K! R.I.P.
'98 E300 Turbodiesel, 213K
'02 S420, 164K
'01 Prius 138K
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