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  #16  
Old 10-17-2007, 10:39 PM
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I'm sure Winmutt has the technology and know how to put it on his car. Like he said, it's not rocket science guys!! I hear everyone nay saying it with "just adjust your alda and check boost" blah blah blah. The thing is, the car still uses some archaic technology. What part of instant boost is bad from introducing newer technology to a very robust platform?

Like winmutt said, the ground work has been laid out by ForcedInduction already. Now there is a map, it is VERY easy to duplicate. Yes the GT23 series IS a better choice... excellent observation. However they are not as easy to obtain. Those liberty turbos are out there, and this type of project is cheap enough to play around with. True, it will not flow MUCH more air (it will flow a bit more), but it will have better drivability. I'm sure it would support the full load screw being turned up, of course in conjunction with an intercooler, and watch your EGTs, yadayadayada.

I think it's terrific that people are stepping up and pioneering things like this (well... at least in this country!).

Keep up the good work winmutt. I'll be putting on my liberty turbo eventually as well, however not the current vehicle as you already know.
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  #17  
Old 10-17-2007, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winmutt View Post
You should try changing your thread count to 50 per page, it makes for an easier read. Rerouting oil, exhaust, modifying a simple intake and attaching a boost controller is not rocket science. I would bet the total cost of the project is around $400 or less, and that includes a spare manifold and oil tubing set. FI has already done a lot of the exploratory work on his own, thus paving the path for those of us who would like to apply some basic technology. Compared to any of the other options this would appear to be the least cost, with the greatest amount of potential. There is no reason we should be restricted to a turbo that is of WW2 vintage. The first VNT was released in 89, it is not like I am trying to add an ECU from a 2000+ mb.
Would you care to provide a link to the thread on Schuman's?
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  #18  
Old 10-17-2007, 11:05 PM
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I had posted this:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/189836-improving-acceleration-post1645368.html#post1645368

And you guys see the answers I got.

This VNT turbo / thread is the answer I wanted. the VNT turbo will Improve acceleration.

These are the type of ideas we need, to modernize our 617 engines. Like I said in that thread, the potential is there in the 617. A few smart ideas and the output of the engine will greatly improve.

Last edited by ARINUTS; 10-17-2007 at 11:10 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-17-2007, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rashakor View Post
Would you care to provide a link to the thread on Schuman's?
Here ya go!

http://schumanautomotive.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21991#post21991
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  #20  
Old 10-18-2007, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winmutt View Post
FI: Would you please state some of your common boost levels at certain rpms? I know you had said 6psi on the off ramp with the foot off the pedal.

What about Idle? 1500rpm?
My particular actuator naturally limits the boost to 8psi, however full power will bring the boost to around 12-13psi. Boost is present as soon as I start moving under a load and reaches maximum around 2700rpm 2-4th gear during my normal daily driving. Mashing the throttle in gear from a low speed will get max boost about 2200rpm, BUT it can send the compressor into the surge range if I try to use heavy throttle below 2500rpm. Above 55mph on the highway it stays at 8psi. No-throttle deceleration off the highway is 5-8psi until about 2800rpm where it starts to go down.

Basically it's a huge step up in driveability, especially if you have a manual transmission.

Idle is 0psi but occasionally just a hair off the 0 peg in ideal conditions. 1500rpm is about 2psi. Revving and holding 3500rpm will make 8psi and the actuator starts moving the vanes to limit pressure.

The simple actuator works for me because I'm keeping boost in the stock pressure range right now. But if you want to go higher then there really needs to be some sort of mechanical device or electronics to control the vanes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invol View Post
Would the adapter work on a OM602? Or is the manifold bolt pattern different than for a OM617?
The adapter will work but the turbo might not fit. R Leo bought one of these turbos from a guy who was going to put on on his 190D. He said he could not get it to fit in the engine bay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARINUTS View Post
Is the GT2256V turbo just a bit on the small side???? Would a GT2259, VNT25, or GT2359 be better suited?

What about this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/GARRETT-REMANNED-CHRYLSER-VNT-TURBOCHARGER-T3-TURBO_W0QQitemZ300160344654QQihZ020QQcategoryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The GT2256V is perfectly fine for stock and somewhat higher than stock power levels and is capable of 18psi with an intercooler on the OM617. You won't find a GT2259V or GT2559V in the USA and the GT2359V would be overkill unless you want to max out your injection pump's fuel delivery for power.

Don't even consider a VNT25. It's ancient T-turbo technology like the T3 and it's too small for any of the Mercedes engines.
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  #21  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winmutt View Post
You should try changing your thread count to 50 per page, it makes for an easier read. Rerouting oil, exhaust, modifying a simple intake and attaching a boost controller is not rocket science. I would bet the total cost of the project is around $400 or less, and that includes a spare manifold and oil tubing set. FI has already done a lot of the exploratory work on his own, thus paving the path for those of us who would like to apply some basic technology. Compared to any of the other options this would appear to be the least cost, with the greatest amount of potential. There is no reason we should be restricted to a turbo that is of WW2 vintage. The first VNT was released in 89, it is not like I am trying to add an ECU from a 2000+ mb.
Best of luck with your project - hope it goes as well as you (and others here) think it will.

I've read FI's account of the results of his VNT modifications and ,at least to me, the results sound exactly like a properly working stock turbo system using an archaic WW2 era turbocharger. It's been awhile since I've driven a 617 but I can tell you the stock turbo boost control system on my 91 2.5 turbo will give me 10-12 PSI of boost before I reach 2K RPM and its at 14.5 PSI before I pass 2.4K RPM mark. No VNT required.

A good running stock OM617 in a W123 chassis will be able to chirp it's tires off the line on dry pavement - I've also owned and driven many examples that absolutely felt like dogs off the line. As I said before I suspect many people that pursue these "modernizations" actually have never driven a OM617 with a sorted out boost control system and a properly adjusted ALDA.
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  #22  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by TimFreeh View Post
91 2.5 turbo will give me 10-12 PSI of boost before I reach 2K RPM and its at 14.5 PSI before I pass 2.4K RPM mark. No VNT required.
Yes, with full throttle acceleration from a stand-still.

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 10-19-2007 at 05:28 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:34 AM
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Very interested in any adapters/info. Rick
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  #24  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Yes, if you powerbrake. There isn't a non-VNT turbo that's going to make 10psi before 2000rpm unless its very small for the engine size.
I don't have a clue what sized turbocharger my car has, that's why I paid for Mercedes-Benz to engineer and build one for me. I can tell you the 2.5 turbo uses a computer to manage the wastegate and the difference in low-throttle response is amazing compared to the earlier OM617. Turbo lag is almost imperceptible off the line and in day-to-day driving the car behaves as a normally aspirated car. Maybe you guys should be looking into computer controlled wastegates - I mean why should you be happy with a wastegate control system that is basically unchanged from WW2 era machinery?
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  #25  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post


Yes, if you powerbrake. There isn't a non-VNT turbo that's going to make 10psi before 2000rpm unless its very small for the engine size.
Do you have any Mercedes-Benz technical documentation in your possession?

If so you might want to take a look at document 09-0050 which describes the functions of the boost control systems on the OM60X series of engines. Please note that these engines use WW2 era turbochargers and boost control systems....

Approximately halfway through the document is a graph which shows boost production as a function of engine RPM at full throttle conditions.

Look up the factory specified boost production at 2K and report back your findings. I'm done with this discussion - you guys are clearly more knowledgeable than Mercedes-Benz when it comes to turbo control systems.
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  #26  
Old 10-18-2007, 09:10 AM
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You aren't understanding what we are trying to accomplish. We aren't talking about full throttle acceleration, we are talking about simple light acceleration in a daily driving setting. There isn't a non-VNT that's going to do that.

Notice in the diagram it says "full load". Try getting that with less than half throttle as I can with my turbo.
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Group Buy? Jeep Liberty CRD GT2256v -> T3 Adapter-om617-boost-diagram.jpg  
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  #27  
Old 10-18-2007, 09:30 AM
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Look at this graph and you will see what I'm talking about.
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  #28  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:34 PM
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I found this:

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10365&start=0
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  #29  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARINUTS View Post
Quote:
OM617
Location: Federal Heights, Colorado USA
hahahahaha there was alot of content edits on page 2!!!!

Seriously I have to say I like his actuator setup a lot more than FI's. I had seen this post before but never looked that closely. I liked his drain tube as well very clean. To bad his adapter plate wont last long.
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  #30  
Old 10-19-2007, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ARINUTS View Post
Yes OM617 is me. Not the best example of conduct, but we have apologized and agreed to delete the posts.

I'm eager to see how his method of control works out but I definitely would have gone a different route than welding the flange to the manifold.
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