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  #76  
Old 11-19-2007, 11:44 AM
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Engineers, Specs, and Manufacturing

Just a couple comments on engineering, specs, and manufacturing.

1.) Are German engineers good. Yes. In today's competative car market, are Mercedes engineers and Quality Assurance folks actively testing superseded oil filters for 20 year old cars? I doubt it, they have 10 million other more important (to their bottom dollar) quality assurance issues to take care of including making sure that the cars they sell next year don't have major reliability issues. Besides, the specs for these oil filters don't have to be given to the manufacturer by MB, these specs are so old that they've been circulated through the community a dozen times.

2.) The "spec" quoted by the Hengst person doesn't read like any Engineering or manufacturing spec that I would have felt comfortable publishing. It's much to vague. I would expect minimum flow rates, minimum particle size, burst pressures, etc. Specs have numbers and tolerances to manufacturing in check

3.) Don't assume that because a company has the spec, that they know how to follow it, can follow it, or even care if they follow it.

4.) We've noticed lately a glut of substandard products coming from China and other countries. Lead in toys, bacteria and chemicals in dog food just to name a few. What makes us think that those manufacturing plants give a hoot about the quality of an oil filter. Again, just because they have the spec doesn't mean they can even understand it or follow it. If it was originally written in German, translated to English, and then into Spanish, Turkish, Indian...

5.) These oil filters don't get shipped to MB before being sent to the US. If MB is inspecting these oil filters, which I doubt, it is easy to create a batch of quality filters to pass the MB inspection while still sending crap to other countries.

6.) Finally, I'll get off my high horse with this. It makes no sense what so ever to have materials like metal shavings, pebbles, and sand in an oil filter. They have no filtering capabilities, they are potentially detrimental to the oiling system (including the pump) and to the engine. This is shoddy manufacturing.

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  #77  
Old 11-19-2007, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatterasguy View Post
How do you know these filters were not built like this from day one? Please cut open a vintage early 80's OE filter to determine whats inside. Until then we have no proof one way or the other.

I am going by what I was told by someone who was a service manager at a MB dealer when these cars were current. He is a german and has been involved with MB cars for many-many years. He said there was an earlier attempt to produce filters in third world countries and it ended up in a service program at dealers when they had to install auxillary bypass filters for a while - or something along those lines.

I agree that these threads go along emotional lines rather than anything based on fact. Most threads on this forum do.

Let's buy the most advanced and most expensive lubricant we can get and filter it through waste products from third-world countries. Let me think about this while I sip my imported, bottled, spring water from a glass containing ice-cubes made from city-water. Let me wash down my organic veggies with alchoholic beverages.

Whatever you are comfortable with is fine with me. Someone call DP and ask them to develop a crankcase purge product.

Anybody got a good horse for sale?
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  #78  
Old 11-19-2007, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwitchKitty View Post
I agree that these threads go along emotional lines rather than anything based on fact.
Unfortunately, there are those who find it convenient to characterize common sense as an emotional response. They are unable to conclude that rocks, dirt and insects don't belong in oil filters unless they can cite the results of a scientific study to that effect.
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  #79  
Old 11-19-2007, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
Could you show us a few examples of companies who employ this "frequently used" tactic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGRED View Post
Significant reputable companies don't just add OE or OEM to a products identification. It is a process that is in place that begins with the manufacture. A major company (deep pockets) wouldn't want the lawsuit for making claims that are not so. So it isn't a tactic unless its from Bobby Joe's Auto Electric - Manufacture and supplier to MB - OE Starters.
I don't get the point of your beef here, unless it is an attempt to suggest because you don't believe shock, tire, oil, etc. suppliers cite their relationships to auto manufacturers based on those products in advertising, you find my credibility on the rest of my statements questionable. Once again, if that is the thrust of your latest comment, even if it weren't true it has nothing to do with the efficacy of the by-pass filter media, or its compliance with the applicable MB technical specifications.

However, I believe if you look carefully at advertising for most DIY style automotive products you will see references to OEM specifications they meet or an outright declaration that they supply to specific automobile manufacturers, when that is the case. A very visible one is Mobil Oil Co and MB, for example. When MB decided some time ago to use, exclusively, Mobil 1 oils, both companies made a big advertising splash about it. As other auto manufacturers followed suit, Mobil has toned down their arrangement with MB a bit, however if you buy the 0W-40 version and examine the label, it still notes that that particular flavor of Mobile 1 meets the MB engine oil specifications. I think you can still find advertising that notes Mobil 1 is the initial fill on AMG models. And if you visit their website you can enter your car into their oil selector assistant, and if it is one that MB recommends Mobil 1 for, the answer will come back stating "the manufacturer of your vehicle recommends the following product...." or words to that effect.

Go spend a moment reading a car magazine and checking the ads. When a product is used, like a Michelin tire, or a Continental tire, or a Bilstein or a Sachs shock absorber, as the equipment supplied by the auto manufacturer on new cars from the factory, it is frequently noted. In some cases the parts supplier is well known and the products for the DIY mechanics are modified from the items supplied to the auto manufacturer (HD shocks, Sport shocks, different tires, plus 1 or plus 2 conversions, etc.) and in those cases a specific statement about the modified product would be untrue, so a more oblique reference to a relationship is made.

In any case, whether you look or not, none of this has any bearing on the by-pass oil filter media efficacy, which was the topic of discussion.

Jim
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Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #80  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
Really?
what is the part # on that filter? all the wix filters I have seen are like the one pictured above, and I work at the Wix Allen plant where they make most filters. I will find out what is what.
The part number is 1385. It is in the older NAPA Gold box (White and Blue lettering). I have some numbers inked onto the filter itself:
NAPA 1385
34899L1
I think that was on the top of the filter. On the side was
8-52759
On the shipping label there was T00155507100 underneathe the barcode. The shipping label has a bunch of info on where it was shipped from and on what date.
The top portion has square holes puncured in. They are about 1/16.
Tom
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  #81  
Old 11-25-2007, 09:46 AM
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Earlier I mentioned that MB has no vested interest in the quality of the filters for out of production engines and is not interested in the quality control since they don't have to pay for the resulting warranty repairs. The lack of quality that we see in the replacement diesel injector nozzles is another example of this.

The engineering standards are just a bunch of paperwork if they are not adhered to when they are implemented. They must be adhered to in spirit as well as technically. Floor sweepings have no place in a filter even if they are not specifically mentioned in the standard.

You pay your money and take your chances.

Last edited by TwitchKitty; 11-25-2007 at 09:51 AM.
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  #82  
Old 11-25-2007, 10:55 AM
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I was going to just let the thread die...but I guess at times I have trouble keeping my mouth shut.

First, if I buy a filter at or have the dealer service my 25 to 30 year old perfectly running classic automobile and do to the lack of quality and or because of improper manufacture of said part causes engine damage to my car I can promise you I will have all the evidence I need to have MB replace the engine and or be victorious in a lawsuit. Assuming they deny they had anything to do with the junk in the filter and as evidence I opened a new one in court to show the junk that is claimed to exist and prove that it is, we are now talking punitive damages on top of it all.

Next...MB a manufacturer prides itself on the fact that its product has the finest engineering and the best manufacturing in the world. A reputation that took 120 years to build and prove. You think that is going to be put at risk (given German thinking) for parts on cars that have not been recently sold?

Finally...There is great pride, marketing value and product recognition at and for MB for having created what is viewed as the finest engine ever designed. You think they are going to toss all that out the window because it won't go to the bottom line on a current production model?

Why do you think parts are still available from the factory on many models of their cars? They have a classic unit within the company from which you can have your car restored, purchase, appraise or help you discuss the rebuilding process and get parts support. Why?....they care.

That's like saying Toyota doesn't care if its cars last beyond 50,000 miles. They know the longer they last the more money they make.

I promise you. There is a guy named Franz or Wolfgang who heads a department within MB that has the burden of insuring that parts are made to spec.

As far as the injector nozzle. Go buy it from the dealer, it won't be the same part and Bosch, if spoken to directly can't state the "part" is OE however the are OEM. The question is.. whom is making the part for MB today. Find that out and it might be available at the same level of quality as the dealer through a parts discounter.
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  #83  
Old 11-25-2007, 11:59 AM
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Like Big Red, I was checking out of this thread, but, the idea that when you buy parts from and MB dealer for any car they provide parts for and you have no right to expect the quality to be checked and standards adhered to is just not realistic. There are people employed to see to it that when a supplier puts the parts in the MB boxes they meet the MB standards. They come with MB warranties.

As for the filter media, you need to understand Germans, especially Germans in post WWII Germany. Exotic materials for replacement parts were not economical, and while a new MB was more expensive than a new VW, luxury to Germans in the 1950' through 1980, at least, was rugged reliability achieved with low cost of ownership. MB Diesels were used almost exclusively at that time for taxi cabs. These are the people who waged a war on the world with next to no natural resources. Raw cotton and "floor sweepings" were likely very cheap and determined from experience to provide adequate service in a by-pass filter, and the benefits of a by-pass filter were also likely documented by experience.

Germans were frugal then. They rarely had adequate resources and usually had to figure out how to get jobs done with alternate solutions that were frugal and in plentiful supply.

I have no data to suggest these filters are substandard so I use them without any reservations. Jim
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Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #84  
Old 11-25-2007, 12:03 PM
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My engine has over 280k on these types of filters.. I think it is doing just fine.. If you want to filter your oil to the max, just get a gulf coast filter or something.. that will catch any crud from the filters
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  #85  
Old 11-25-2007, 12:12 PM
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Either the specific reports of defective products are lies or maybe your conjecture is not accurate. Are you saying that all of these people lied?

There is another thread open about someone looking to manufacture nozzles because they can't buy suitable replacements. Are you saying they are doing this for the fun of it?

Maybe your idealistic images of modern corporate industry are not exactly up to date. I think we already covered emotional responses.

Maybe if you stand on a soapbox less and get your hands dirty on these issues you will see another viewpoint.

Being adamant and being right are two different things.

The issue here is not only about parts in MB boxes.
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  #86  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:10 PM
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My engine has 267k miles on it with these filters. Anyone want to take bets on when it blows? I'll give you great odds.
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  #87  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:37 PM
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I'll probably use Fram's as long as I can find them, but I can get Bosch filters for $7, so I may go back to those when my frams run out. I used them for years with no issues. I was up in our garage loft yesterday and checked out our filter collection (hengst, fram, bosch) and the hengst has stuff sticking out of the "slits" on the bypass section, but the bosch and fram were spotless. I will probably buy some more Bosch filters in my next order, they look plenty good. I think I will cut open the Hengst, because I really don't want to put that in any of our engines. We'll see whats in it....
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  #88  
Old 11-26-2007, 01:05 PM
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Not taking sides here, but like Fram, Bosch was never an OE supplier of oil filters for Mercedes.
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  #89  
Old 03-04-2009, 10:33 AM
C Sean Watts's Avatar
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I just sent this to WIX...

I have the WIX filter 51289 for a 1987 Mercedes 300D. Recent concern in the diesel car community has a few of us wanting some information.
The upper portion of this WIX filter is packed full of what appears to be bulk cotton with twigs, leaves and dead insects (cotton gin waste.)

Is there any specific reason for using this material as filter media? It would seem to be very ineffective as such. By the way, I also understand the oil circulation in the Mercedes engine and that some of the oil is routed back to the oil pan.

The lower pleated portion seems like other factory filters.

Does WIX manufacture any filter for this application that does not use cotton gin waste?


When they respond, I'll post it..
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  #90  
Old 03-04-2009, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Sean Watts View Post
I have the WIX filter 51289 for a 1987 Mercedes 300D. Recent concern in the diesel car community has a few of us wanting some information.
The upper portion of this WIX filter is packed full of what appears to be bulk cotton with twigs, leaves and dead insects (cotton gin waste.)

Is there any specific reason for using this material as filter media? It would seem to be very ineffective as such. By the way, I also understand the oil circulation in the Mercedes engine and that some of the oil is routed back to the oil pan.

The lower pleated portion seems like other factory filters.

Does WIX manufacture any filter for this application that does not use cotton gin waste?

When they respond, I'll post it..
At least the Full Flow section has a 17 Nominal Microns rating. Way better than the 32 Nominal Microns of the Wix Filter for the 617 type engines.

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Last edited by Diesel911; 03-04-2009 at 05:11 PM.
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