Ack! Second oil pan gasket - still leaks! What am I doing wrong?
 

Well I had to drop the pan to replace the turbo drain tube (super PITA - at some point I'll post pics / tips on that job). Though I got that leak fixed, I created a new one - the oil pan now leaks.

I used a new gasket and thought everything was a clean as could be - but, nope - drip drip drip.

I ordered a new pan, gasket and hardware and went about changing it this weekend. Well, as I unwrapped the new oil pan I found out that it was bent at the lip. CRAP! Called all 4 MB dealers in DFW and no one had one and I had already drained the oil and dropped the pan - CRAP!

Well before I did the turbo oil drain tube,. the pan hadn't been the source of any leaks so I gambled on the oil pan with just a new gasket. I torqued to 10nm all way round - leaked immediately. Torque the side with the leak was to 12nm (scared to go higher as those 5mm hex bolts don't look that stout). But, right now, it looks like it's still leaking. I guess I'll rig some towel / rag / diaper as to not make a mess on the bottom of the car and get the dealer to order another pan and gasket. CRAP! That and I'm going through $40 worth of Mobil 1 every change!

So - what am I doing wrong? This time I buffed the mating surface on the bottom of the engine with a little super fine steel wool and carb cleaner in case of residue. The surface is super glass smooth to the touch. I even got a SK micrometer 1/4" torque wrench that is good to .2nm and did a criss cross (opposite side) pattern. The pan was perfectly clean. I'm putting these gaskets on DRY. The leak is on the back side like before.

Should I:
(a) get a new pan, gasket and try again?
(b) do these gaskets expand some? Any chance it will stop leaking? (I know - fat chance)
(c) new pan, gasket and some kind of permatex sealant? If so - which one?

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/auto_Permatex_High_Tack_Spray-A-Gasket_Sealant.htm

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/Permatex_Super_High_Tack_Gasket_Sealant.htm

thanks!

warpage
 

It sounds like you are doing all the right things.
BUT,
'Take a piece of flat glass ,larger than the pan,dust it with talcum powder or
flour(white,sifted).'BARELY oil the clean mating surface of the pan,turn it upside
down onto the dusted glass...anywhere on the mating surface without dust
after you remove it might be un-flat.
You can try the same procedure with the mating surface of the bottom of the
engine.(only, hold the dusted glass up to the bottom of the block mating surface)

There is a member named Steve Brotherton who is a professional wrench turner
,try to send him your question.I am sure he's run up against this one before.

What type of gasket is it? Is it cork? They are easily compromised. A rougher clean surface (rather than glass smooth) actually "grips" the gasket better.

I'd heard this Motoseal is good stuff.
http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/specialty_gasket_maker/MotoSeal_1_Ultimate_Gasket_Maker_Grey.htm

OEM gasket - pressed paper?
 

Definately not cork not rubber. It's green on both sides and white center. Looks like a paper / cardboard-ish gasket.

There is no reason that the oil cannot be reused if it is drained into a clean container. And you can buy a nice, new drain pan for less than the price of one quart of Mobil 1!!!

Personally, I see nothing wrong with using a high temp permatex sealent along with the gasket. Just make sure not to use too much of it.... It will fill in any minor gaps that the paper gasket doesnt fill in.......

Yes, but I just replaced my wife's pan, and I didn't need any permatex... so I think there must be something wrong with that pan.

use permatex ultra black. http://www.autozone.com/selectedZip,93309/initialAction,accessoryProductDetail/initialR,NONAPP24943/shopping/selectZip.htm spread a small ammount over the oil pan and the top of the gasket, then bolt it up. Make sure there is NO OIL on either sides. oil will keep the sillicone from sealing and cause a leak.

I'd try it with a new pan, your old one is probably bent.

Definitely take a very close look (with a magnfier) at your oil pan before you install it. Look for cracks, bends etc. Check it against a piece of glas per compress ignite's post above. Maybe you can straighten the bend, if any, to make it useable.

I replaced my pan and gasket (and strainer) a month or so ago and it hasn't leaked a drop. So I bet it is the pan in your case that is causing the leaking. I didn't even precision torque it, I just tightened it up nice and snug with an allen key...took for-ev-er. :eek:

Thanks everyone
 

I'll buy a virgin catch container for the Mobil 1 and reuse - that makes total sense.

I think a thin layer of permatex with a new gasket and new pan couln't hurt.

It's just so maddening. This really shoudn't be so difficult.

guys, I think we need to re read what he said about he reused the old pan, which didn't leak. That being said, get the ultra black, and do a thin film on the pan, place the gasket on there, and do another thin film on top of the gasket. Let it set up for about 10 minutes, and install the pan. Just get the bolts snug, wait a half hour, and torque to specs.

This is all just IMHO of what I'd do.

That doesn't prove it is still straight.

bodyart27, do you remember which order you removed the pan bolts the first time you took it off?

Guys, you're talking about a $60 oil pan, how much time do you really want to spend messing around before you replace it?

Craig, from reading your old posts, I know you've spent loads of $$$ replacing parts in your car, paying for long distance towing, mechanics etc. Care to give us an estimate how much you have into your car? An oil pan is one of the lowest tech part you will ever come across and is easily inpected. He already bought a new pan and it still leaked. And you want him to just go out and drop another $60 to buy another one?

I'm afraid to add it up in detail. ;) I would guess I have between $15 and 20K total (including purchase price) over 250K miles and about 6 years, that's probably $.08 per mile for purchase and repairs, not including routine stuff. However, I have not done the engine yet, which will bump up that number considerably. My best guess is $.30 per mile total (including fuel) over the long term. Actually that's not to bad, considering it would probably cost more like $.50-.60 per mile to keep driving new ones (probably more).

Regarding the oil pan, I don't think my indy even tries to reuse them once they come off. I missed the part where this was a new pan that leaking. I thought he was still trying to reuse the old one, which is probably more trouble than it's worth. I still think he could waste a lot of time on this, how much time is worth $60.

Edit: I also missed the part where the new pan was bent, good luck trying to get that to seal. I might have tried reinstalling the old pan (with gasket sealant) and returned the new one if I needed the car back together in a hurry.

It must be the pan. I just did the job being described and used some gasket making stuff that comes in a cheese whiz type of aerosol can (the label came off so I can't help) really expensive but won't break into pieces (so I was told).

I skimmed a coat on the pan, the the gasket and another skim. We shall see.

I understand there should be no need for anything but the gaskets. But I have yet to have either of our car operate without what seems to be leaks from the pan and that is with new ones.

I had thought about fabricating a flat metal (1/8") ring with holes so that the pressure created by the screws would spread evenly around the pan...but grabbed the can of stuff.

...its only $24 on ********........

part is in - try again tonight
 

Dealer got one in for me. I did notice the one I had was Febi (Febu?).

At this point a new pan is worth the $ to get the car back on the road. Part of me wants to try the gasket dry again, but I don't want to do this a 4th time (gaskets aren't that cheap), so this attempt (#3) I'll use a thin coat of gasket sealer.

I've seen two people mention ultra black.

This is the product that seems the best "fit" for the application since it is a "sealant":

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/auto_Permatex_Form-A-Gasket_No_2_Sealant.htm

Ultra black is under the bucket of gasket "maker":

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers/auto_Permatex_Ultra_Black_Maximum_Oil_Resistance_RTV_Silicone_Gasket_Maker.htm

They really need a decision maker wizard based on your application (using a paper gasket > oil pan > etc) as 90% of their products seem to list the oil pan as an application. hmmmmm

Anyway - dropped the pan last night and captured most of the new Mobil-1 in a container. Dropped the pan last night so I wouldn't be fighting drips while installing the new pan and gasket.... ugh.

You cannot go wrong with either Permatex #2 or a thin coating of RTV. (Which is not to say that either should be necessary for leak-free installation.)

how is #2 supposed to help? it's just a lubricant, if I read the packaging correctly. for use on bolts in water jackets etc...

Not hardly.

so far so good
 

used the #2 and let the pan set-up overnight

This morning I filled her up and went for a test drive - so far so good!

I put the goo on the pan and both sides of the gasket and used a plastic spatula to thin it out. Looking back, I would do just both sides of the gasket.

wait, you used what to seal it? ultra black or gasket maker #2? because i have used both.. and gasket maker 2 really really isnt what you want..

used #2
 

Based on the product pdfs on the permatex web site #2 gasket sealant looked to be the choice for the application (i.e. - you are using a paper gasket) vs ultra black gasket maker (i.e. - may or may not have a gasket to start with)

I'll recheck the pan when I get home tonight to see how she's holding up, but when I blotted the edge with a paper towel (where pan meets engine) after my early morning test drive - I did not pick up a single speck of oil. I'm not ready to claim victory yet, but that was great to see this morning.

If you never, ever want to take the pan off again you can use a silicone gasket maker called the 'The Right Stuff' by Permatex- http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers/auto_Permatex_the_Right_Stuff_Gasket_Maker.htm It comes in a pressurized can and dispenses like Cheese Wiz. Just put a bead of that on the pan with no gasket and bolt it up. The stuff is literally guaranteed not to leak. The downside is that you will not be able to pry that pan off again without ruining it unless you take a torch (I used a propane torch so as not to get things _too_ hot) and heat the flange up to about 500 degrees or so to get the sealer to break down.

I have not had the pan off my 84 300D before. I am wondering if the pan bolts go into blind holes is it possible there some crud got up in the holes and is causing the bolts to bottem out in their holes too soon? Are all of the pan bolts the same length?

No.

Thanks... Thats the stuff I used and couldn't remeber the name of. (label came off the can).

They pass through the upper pan ... so no worries.

all but two pass through the pan
 

There are two bolts that do not pass up through the lip of the pan - they are on the rear side (as opposed to the crank pully / front side). These are the two bolts you definately want to torque to spec and not snap off (it would be extra had to extract / retap). I was sure to blast the holes out with carb cleaner to be sure the threads were not full of grit.

There is one extra long bolt (at least on the 126) on the driver's side that has a spacer and a loop that holds the transmission cooler line to the side of the engine before it travels to the cooler itself (transitions from a hard line to a flex line)

Maybe this weeked if I can get some time I'll post pics.
I did a new oil pick up strainer with the pan off, the Dave Morrison check valve procedure, and the oil drain tube (some tips to pass along on this PITA job).

So far so good - absolutely dry. I wonder if I can go with just a "dry" gasket now that I have a new pan. I might give it a shot next oil change.

Hmmm either my memory is slipping or mine is tapped all the way through (on the TD anyway which was retrofitted with a turbo engine). I'll be under her today and have a look.

Also it has spacers on both sides and an A/C bracket that mounts to the pan (nuts on top of bracket).

In any event a shot of something in the hole (I like WD40 as a general product) will cause any grime to pour out.