Just How Would One Make The Car Handle Better
 

I was just wondering if you had your suspension up to spec, like in perfect condition what could you do to make my car a better handling car. Now i know that these cars were not sport cars but something alittle better would be nice. is there anything that can be upgraded on the suspension other than lowering springs.

Thicker sway bars from the 300TD, metal W115 sway bar links, 15" alloy wheels from a W126 (205/60R15) and give the front wheels just a hair negative camber.

Did you get in on the Vogtland Group buy?

no i didn't get the chance to because i was a little low on money. Some day i will probably just get some custom springs, the way i want them to be. Oh well, thats for another day. and thanks ForcedInduction for the good information. I knew that there was some parts that could be used from other vehicles but just didn't know from which one. thanks.

Well you could fit some Porsche wheels, but then you'd need Porsche hubs. So you fit Porsche hubs, they require Porsche brakes, and Porsche wishbones. Then you'd have to change the chassis because the wishbones wouldn't fit, you'd also need Porsche springs and dampers, and once the chassis was changed you'd have to replace the engine, shell, and interior, for Porsche parts.

Or you could just buy a Porsche.

The rear sway bar is not from the TD's it was special order for limos, ambulances and police vehicles. I would vote for Bilstein HD's, coupe springs, wider tires and the thinnest spring shims that keep you in spec on camber. This was the setup that I had in my old car that just about fantastic. I have to say that the vogtland springs make my car ride on rails, there are some s curves that are fantastic.

Doesn't "camber" mean leaning in on the top? I'm just asking. I don't know. If that's right, why would larger diameter wheels affect the camber? Wouldn't any camber off of dead center cause uneven tire wear?

Tire size would not change camber. 205/60R15 is less than 1% different than the stock tire diameter. However, it has less sidewall rubber for less flex in corners and it is wider for more grip.

Negative camber will make it wear on the inside but it can significantly reduce understeer.

Larger diameter wheels are not connected with wanting or needing neg camber.
Neg camber is the top of the wheels closer together, and a slight neg camber helps the rear tires stay on the pavement in cornering. I am not a proponent of messing with front wheel camber but it might be something someone uses I just don't think it will help that much. Its the rear end coming around I would work on first.

For a car with wide wheels on the rear one wants few degrees negative for better handling and this lowers the wear on the outer edges of the tire. You see Porsches squatting down in the rear with something like 4 or more degrees neg camber. Rear Camber isn't adjustable on the 123 anyway so forget that.

Larger wheels with a reduced sidewall to keep the same (or approx the same) speedometer reading gives better tire response because the sidewalls are shorter and flex less than the taller OE tires on a 14 in wheel.
I vote for the wheel change above all because this also allows you to select from a better choice of tires, and those with sportier response.
HD shocks are the next thing to do if your after better handling but be aware that you are going to lose a lot of the overall comfort as a trade off for better handling. A 123 with all new suspension bushings and the normal "comfort" Bilstein shocks will handle quite well and still feel like a "luxury" car.
If the front sway bar would have been easy to change I probably would have tried that but its a huge PITA.

I'd buy a BMW and enjoy the ride of my car.:D

But for a W126 I'd hunt for some AMG parts, finding an AMG in a junk yard would be gold. It will be hard and expensive but possible.

Or if it was that important just buy an AMG model, but again they are very expensive. For a 560SEL with the full AMG makeover, suspension, body kit, engine, interior, in good shape your looking at $30k+/-. And it will still be a pig compared to what else you can get for $30k, M3, NSX, 911, 308, ect.

A W123 is never going to be a sports car, enjoy it for what it is.

A W123 280e euro with dual fuel injection per cylinder and a 5 speed manual is a FAST car....my dad's dad had one back in Germany, a NEW one....he said it was a land rocket. (My dad got to drive it sometimes) He said it'd effortlessly and quickly top 150mph. Wshew. And, he said you could watch the fuel gauge move while doing so. :D ;)

By modern standards they are slow, only 185hp if my memory serves me. A 4cy Accord produces much more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQW9a0qTCsA&feature=related

They do ok though, MB usualy gears their cars really well.

They did race them, looks like they stuck a big V8 in them, probably an M117. Then stripped it and dropped the suspension. Probably some custom stuff their.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X5oglHaLV8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMA5cQwn3nI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJyC_lugMJw
Here is an AMG W126 that one of our forum members owns. I'd sell my soul for that car, it has the same interior as my SDL, and three times the hp.:D

Put some sticky tires on it. I have Donlop A2s on mine and can not get them to squeal. It has lots of body roll though. T-walgamuth has a 280E with slicks that he auto-x races and does fairly well. For the size, weight and era these cars handle quite well.

If you want it to handle better, you need to gnereally make the suspension stiffer. That would include new shocks, stiffer springs, stiffer sway bars, and stiffer tires. You also would want to lower the ride height (and thus cneter of gravity), usually with shorter springs, and possibly a shorter wheel/tire combo.

Camber is important because as you turn, the tires on the opposite side decamber as the weight transfers. When the tires decamber, the tire contact patch (tire/road connection) distorts and the tire sidewall deflects (end result of that it loss of traction). Adding a bit of negative camber will not affect wear all that much (most irregular tire wear is caused by the toe setting).

This endeavour definately is not a cheap road to go down.

I spent nearly 2k just changing out my bushings, ball joints, rebuilding steering box etc. That was summer 2004. I replaced everything in the front.

Plus 18inch wheels (2k)
plus lowering springs + 700 for my klann spring compressor
plus kmac rear kit
then you are like, well im in here, I might as well do XYZ....so do keep that in mind. Get a w124 or something more updated dont waste your time making a commuter car a sports car like I did.

This is outside the box, but if you are serious, take a high performance driving school course, such as Bondurant, Infineon, etc.

Improving the performance and ability of the driver is a GREAT way to inmprove the performance of the car and the skills not only make you better able to control and handle your car, they translate well over to any
other car you drive.

I would think this would be mandatory for the first time buyer of some ultra high performance car like a Porsche, Ferrari, AMG Mercedes, to get real benefit out of it, but it would be a great investment for ANY driver that owned ANY car.

I would restore the suspension (front and rear) to "as new" condition before I even started thinking about "improvements." Anything you do beyond that is likely to bring diminishing returns. If you are really not happy with the handling characteristics of this car (once it is correct), it will be much cheaper to buy a different car.

You can get a real sports car cheap, I bet $1k could get you a nice Mazda Miata and another $1k could make it a nice little track car.

Remember weight is your enemy, and all you need is a drivers seat, gear shift, and steering wheel. Rip everything else out.:D

Something like that would be a fun little project and you are starting with a car that can run rings around most MB's.

Best advice in the thread. Even if not Bondurant, several performance driving courses are available from places like the SCCA (scca.org), NASA (nasaracing.net), BMW club, Porsche club, etc.. When I started autocrossing, my times would drop several seconds each time I went. When I got good enough as a driver (at least a season) to start getting stuff on the car, they improved my times by tenths of a second.

Improved handling....
 

Sorta like this:

I have fun with mine. It has the 369 rear welded and I am running hoosier 225/50 r 14s on stock bundt cakes with about 20mm spacers on front and h and r 1" lowering springs. On launch it will lay two patches of rubber with ease. The welded diff is causing massive understeer though and for next year I am trying to figure a way to put in a limited slip without breaking the bank.

For a street car I would just put on some bilstein hd or sport and some good michelin tires and go. The 15" mercedes rims weigh about 20# while the 14" weigh about 14# so you will get a rougher ride. IMHO you will not be able to feel the difference in handling except for the rougher ride which you will be able to feel.

The 15" rims are ok on the heavier s class but too heavy for the 123 cars, imho. I love the sweet ride of the 240d little aluminum rims which weigth only 10#.

Tom W

this thread is of great interest to me: my '83 300D has always had both handling and tire wear "issues" that need both understanding and fixing. The facts are:
1) bad tire wear on the inside edge of the drivers side front tire (gone in 10,000 miles)
2) poor high speed handling - does not ride the 'rail' - likes to wander.
3) 4 different alignment machines ( shops) show perfect 4 wheel alignment.
4) oem alloy rims with 'H' rated tires for stiffer sidewall stability.
5) no obvious worn parts (lots of new stuff like upper ball joints etc)

H&R's or did you cut them?

Looks really good!

The rods that run from near the unibody up to the lower control arm? Have you checked those trust bushings? Just replace them.

Lordy it's lowered.....
 

H & R SEL springs. Used one no. 1 spring cup in front and one no.2 spring cup in rear. In retrospect, should have used no 2-3 in front and maybe no 3 in rear. Wheels are 1999 SLK stockers with stock lug bolts. Still clears fenders though, but am really glad for the stock Mercedes pan protector in the front. They say they don't make these skid plates anymore, so you might have to make one if you venture to go so loooowwww :yes:

If you cut the stock springs, use an air cut-off wheel (no torch). Removal of one coil equals about .8 to 1.2 inches lower. But I wanted the stiffer H & R spring for more body control and less roll. The wider tires help in the stopping/cornering. The nose down attitude plus the taller tires does give a little better fuel mileage (seem to be getting about 30-ish in mixed town/freeway driving). Engine does run a little cooler too with better air flow thru radiator.

Regards

Run-Em

thanks omegabenz - I have not replaced those particular bushing but since I have it apart in the shop I will now.
Odd, though, how the tire wear issue affects only the one side/wheel... its been like this since I got the car at 100K (now has 270k). No sign of collision.

btw - your benz looks fantastic!

1) and 2) is improper toe setting. You need to have the toe adjusted in. The tires should be slightly pigeon toed at rest to get rid of wander because the tires spread slightly at speed.
EDIT:nvm, brain skipped #3.

I posted this a while back... but i cleaned it up the other day for another forum. here is what i did on my 300SD. I'm sure all of this can be transfered to the W123. the 116 sway bar may need to come from a 115. but I'm sure it could work.

W126 suspension upgrades (the cheap and dirty way)


THE BACK

I've installed 3 Nub rubbers in the back, a rear sway bar off of a 116.

I read somewhere that the 116 sway bar fit in the 126... but I can't remember the forum, and i searched all over the place for verification, but no luck. so i went to the pick and pull and laid under a few cars. and it looked like it fit, except its mounted further back in the 116, thus the bar is about twice the diameter as the bar in the 126, to make up for the extra torque the longer arms would deliver. so i thought SWEET. I'll just lop off the extra 3 inches of arm, and drill some new holes....

I took the bar to school, and removed the 126 bar and tried to install the 116 bar. no luck. the 126 bar has a bend in it that moves it out of the way of the rear dif mount. this bend faces the rear of the car. well the 116 bar has a bend also, but since it is mounted further back in the car, the bend bends toward the front of the car to clear the spare tire sump in the trunk. so the only way to make the 116 bar fit was backward!

so i ran to home depot, and bought some steel bar stock. 1in x 1/4in x 3ft cut it into 2 14in peaces. i then cut the arms of the 116 bar off so that only 6 inches of the arms were left. i them welded the bar stock onto the 116 bar. i used a vice and the leverage of the 116 bar to bend the steel bar stock into the shape of the arms on the 126 bar and.... IT FITS!

it rubs on the spare tire sump. so i took a hammer to the sump... it needs a few more wacks. i had to use a razor knife to carve the 116 sway bar bushings to fit into the smaller 126 holders.

I'm currently using the plastic 126 sway bar links. but I'm going to order some metal ones off of a 115/116 to handle the stiffer bar better.

THE FRONT

First I started by chopping 1 360 degree coil out of some front springs i got from the pick and pull. I installed them and the car sat way lower. so low that the oil pan hit the ground and the tires hit the finders. I do have rather large tires on the car. 60/225/R15.. anyway. the car was to low and to soft for my taste. I also noticed that the car was leaning to the drivers side. so i compressed the springs and installed some coil in spring rubbers. this lifted the front of the car slightly and made it way stiffer. i also installed a 2 nub rubber on the front passenger side and left a 3 nub on the drivers side.

the car now sits great. and handles awesome.

the car still leans toward the drivers side. both front and rear are 1/2 inch lower on the drivers side. I plan on making some shims and shimming the drivers side until it matches the passengers side. but I'm waiting on that until i get new tires. because i'm sure part of the reason I've got a lean to the drivers side is because i'm in the car alone most of the time.

attached are some pics of the modified 116 sway bar. and the rubber coil shim i installed in the front. and the spring out of the car with the rubber coil installed in the spring. and the car in the parking lot outside.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...0&d=1194555125
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...1&d=1194555145
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...9&d=1194555096
http://schumanautomotive.com/forums/...1&d=1197324767
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...3&d=1194555318
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...2&d=1194555299

Between this and Jim B.'s advice about driving school. Best answer.
Larger diameter rims will add weight. The 14 inch bundts weigh all of 13 pounds.

Nice! I don't want mine to ride stiffer so I will probably just cut the springs. I need to measure but I think I'll shoot for a 1.5in drop all around. Nothing to crazy, I like slight mods.:D I do drive it around dirt construction sights sometimes so I can't go to low!:eek::D