just resleeved a block a few months ago....not possible in car.. Yes you can remove sleeve by mig welding a bead up the cyl. You might be able to install the new one by placing thenew sleeve in the freezer overnite and heating the block with a torch. But milling the top flush with block???? and its more than a light hone to fit the piston....especially with a semi worn piston.

i would never say never,but i bet you that the 603 engine you speak of does not have existing sleeves at this point.
cyl has to be bored to fit new sleeved and i have yet have found one that had been bored for you. engine did not have sleeves to begin with.
larry perkins lou ky

Than whats this?

http://catalog.worldpac.com/mercedesshop/sophio/wizard.jsp?partner=mercedesshop&clientid=catalog.mercedesshop&baseurl=http://catalog.peachparts.com/&cookieid=28X12DWBP28X137685&year=1987&make=MB&model=300-SDL-001&category=All&part=Cylinder+Sleeve

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

What is fitted after the cylinder is bored to accept it?

why dont some one suggest a bet, i will take it.
larry perkins louky

WOW...You guys are terrific! I had no idea this posting would generate such response.

I used to remove Alfa Romeo wet liners on a regular basis in the course of major rebuilds and a few times in the car. We were lucky to own some very high quality factory tools consisting of thick case hardened discs with machined steps and a tempered fine threaded shafts that applied pressure from the center. I hardly ever used them once I learned a few time saving tricks. These liners were also unbelievably tight, requiring massive forces, the special tools and tons of time. On the other hand, if the raw block was placed on the floor, then carefully and uniformly heated with say an oil fired salamander they would almost always drop out on their own accord like magic. Although I have not held a Mercedes liner in my hand, there are two major differences that come to mind. The Alfa blocks were all aluminum and the liners were much thicker. Before every engine rebuild after the liners were removed, the blocks were hot tanked tanked and given an align bore check by my trusted machinist. Not once was a block ever warped using this method but I'll spare you the details about the consequences of using other methods, especially the hydraulic press.

On a number of very rare vintage blocks which had often been left outside or obtained from old seized motors, liners were virtually welded to the blocks due to water, rust, and galvanic action. When original piston-liner sets were not available, used liners could often be bored by a competent machine shop to match 1st or 2nd piston oversizes. Trashed liners would always have to be painstakingly extracted using any number of methods. These included running a die grinder along the length of the bore, applying uniform heat to the block, chilling the liners with compressed air or nitrogen, selective fracturing of the cast liner, working penetrating oil into the press fit area, etc. Another important trick I learned along the way was to always favor using any method to pull the male member of the press fit into the female member as opposed to pressing. This runs counter to most procedures since it is often not possible, however, on liners this can be theoretically accomplished during extraction, which is always far more difficult than insertion. As some of you mentioned, removing liners using a hydraulic press will usually require massive pressing forces since the male member tends to mushroom.

Although there were some opinions voiced about the need to bore and surface plane Benz liners after press fitting, this was never required on other engines I encountered although it is commonly addressed in most good factory workshop manuals. According to references in the service bulletins from MB's OE supplier, Kolbenschmidt (KS) , each piston liner assembly contains the required shim/sealing ring to assure proper deck height. I would assume that when these piston/liner sets are installed into bare blocks additional machining would not be necessary. This situation could change if dirt, corrosion, incorrect seals, or imperfect press fits alter these dimensions.

Now for all the if's, and's and but's that could make or break the feasibility of this operation. Assuming you have a spare block with liners and a pair of well machined and oil quenched (hardened) upper and lower threaded plates, would it not be possible to heat the block and extract the liners without deforming or marring the bore?

If so,you might be able to salvage several usable liners and pistons during the process of a complete rebuild or teardown. These of course would be standard bores and would match the mating pistons exactly or for that matter any other used piston from the piston class designated by the factory stamping on the block. Hypothetically, if the bore tolerances were ok, these could be ridge reamed, honed and used with matching pistons after installing fresh rings and could always be used as individual substitutes in an emergency ie:cracked rings, liner cavitation, piston defects, etc (BTW, I have a spare motor sitting in the shop that meets this description thanks to some guy who overheated his 603 engine ruining the ring tension but showing a decent bore) We all realize that there are new liners as well as piston/liner sets, but let's ignore this fact for the time being, since it will only compound other variables such as differing bore tolerances, piston weight variations, etc.

Now, one day we yank the head on our car for a gasket replacement only to find the dreaded sight of a single liner with deep vertical scoring, most likely the result of broken rings and the hidden cause of irritating blowby and oil consumption. What would you guys do in a situation like this?

Since the liner is history and other alternatives range from risky gambles to outrageous amounts of time and money, wouldn't it be dandy to have the option of dropping the pan, removing the piston, and doing an R&R on the liner? I have heard of very reputable diesel shops using the weld bead method one of you mentioned. Let's say we go one step further by doing the following:
1. Hacksaw the top of the junk piston, fit an O ring in the ring land and use it as a plug for bottom of the liner.

2. If needed, use the best combination of cutting, fracturing, grinding, etc then bead weld but with the following addition.

3. Near the top of the liner, purposely leave a gap in the weld line. At this point carefully center a sacrificial washer, old piston ring, etc. using a vernier caliper to keep the depth more or less equal then weld a few spots along the perimeter above the ring. This will serve as an anchor point for PULLING from below using the lower disc of our special tool. Notice that this is not mating the lower edge of the liner like most conventional tools. It will require a recess cutout to accommodate the welded bead.

4. Center the upper disc with the threaded rod (found on many gear or bearing pullers) and a machined recess for the liner and thread into the threads of the lower plate. This should pull with enormous force but owing to the design of the anchor, it will act to shrink the outer walls of the liner in proportion to the force applied as opposed to mushrooming the liner thereby avoiding many risks to the block from warping or cracking, using a hydraulic press.

Installation of a replacement liner should be much more straightforward although you would loose the ability to get a decent pull. Gently heating the block from below for a couple of hours as well as cooling the liner would greatly reduce the force required. If I'm not mistaken, for all metals there certain values defining their coefficients of expansion and contraction but all have a narrow range of acceptable engineering tolerances for press fits. After this point the metal will deform or form cracks. Of course knowing Mercedes, they always seem to enjoy taking the limits of force to the most absurd levels. This is what scares me, but as we all know there have been many clever solutions revealed in this forum alone. This may or may not be one of them, but I'd be willing to bet it's doable and certainly been done before.

I'll have to check the FSM when I get home, I'm wasting time at school now.

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

The piston? After the liner is machined...

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

And to install a new liner a shop where I used to work would soak it in liquid nitrogen, slide it in, hold it until it warmed enough to stay in its own. Don't know if it'd work in a little M-B engine and it sounds like it'd need to be finish machined after though.

__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

I should also mention that an aluminum block with iron sleeve would be much easier to remove, it seems to happen by accident in fact in Rover V-8s when overheated enough, simply because the thermal coefficient of expansion is much greater for aluminum than for iron.

__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

The Alfa engine uses a "wet sleeve", so called because coolant is in direct contact with the sleeve. Benz uses a "dry sleeve", so called because the sleeve is not in direct contact with the coolant. Wet sleeves as stated above can usually be withdrawn by hand and during the course of engine assembly need to be mechanically restrained from moving along with the piston if the cranckshaft is rotated. The dry sleeve in a Benz engine is a press fit to ensure proper heat transfer from the sleeve to the engine block.
R&R a Benz sleeve with engine in situ could likely be done, but it's easier to remove the engine to the machine shop and probably would give better results.

My experience is with the 616 and 617 engine. I am not familiar with the 603 so cannot comment on this relative to them. If Larry Perkins says they don't have sleeves I suspect they don't.

Tom W

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

I am fairly certain that the only 603 without liners is the "rodbender" 350. the 300's do have factory liners.

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
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My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
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That is correct regarding the Alfa sleeves. Never had to use anything more than my hand to get them out of the block. They have rubber o-rings that fit around the sleeve lip at the bottom, so that coolant will not seep into the crankcase. Regards.

Somewhere I must have the interference fit specs on the liner to block interface. I realize that the dry liner is a different animal and the likelihood of this in a Benz flys in the face of conventional wisdom but it's not impossible.

I love liner block motors and the effort spent on machining up a liner removal tool might be well spent.

A very accurate liner installation tool could be made by anchoring the top half with cylinder bolts and the bottom plate to the lower bore opening or via a dummy crank and drawing the two together. An alignment centering jig could be made from an old piston. Heat the block, chill the liner and press into place.

If more force is needed beyond a large, fine threaded center screw and an air gun, a 10 or 20 ton bottle jack and a more robust top plate head would do the trick.

According to MB's OE Manufacturer KS, new liners do not need to be bored after installation but must be checked for accuracy and may be "size optimized" by rehoning.

Now, can anyone who says this can't be done except by a machine shop tell me why? Cleanliness, better tools for honing and measuring tolerances, bigger presses???

For the shops or customers who have had this done, feel free to post a full labor cost on such a job. I for one know the amount of labor hours on this is monsterous and I don't think there are many who could justify this. For a full rebuild due to high milage on a favorite car, maybe, but on the failure or out of spec single cylinder......