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  #31  
Old 12-25-2007, 10:47 AM
ForcedInduction
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With my 11 other cars I pay plenty in fuel taxes.
Playing "plenty of taxes" is not enough by any standards, you need to pay ALL the required taxes.

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Originally Posted by powerpig View Post
run the fuel the engine was designed to run on in the first place.
100% incorrect. These engines were designed by Mercedes-Benz to use Diesel #1 and Diesel #2, not vegetable oil. Besides, the fuel the Diesel engine was originally designed to run on is coal dust.

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I also think that most people would not believe that a Mercedes owner would put SVO in their fuel tank.
You mean even after all the media attention, multitude of websites and a dozen or so businesses based on selling "conversion" kits to use WVO/SVO?

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  #32  
Old 12-25-2007, 10:56 AM
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"Diesel demonstrated his engine at the Exhibition Fair in Paris, France in 1898. This engine stood as an example of Diesel's vision because it was fueled by peanut oil - the "original" biodiesel. He thought that the utilization of a biomass fuel was the real future of his engine. He hoped that it would provide a way for the smaller industries, farmers, and "commonfolk" a means of competing with the monopolizing industries, which controlled all energy production at that time, as well as serve as an alternative for the inefficient fuel consumption of the steam engine. As a result of Diesel's vision, compression ignited engines were powered by a biomass fuel, vegetable oil, until the 1920's and are being powered again, today, by biodiesel."
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  #33  
Old 12-25-2007, 11:08 AM
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Point out anything that says Mercedes designed the original engine or Dr. Rodolph Diesel assisted in the design of Mercedes' engines. You can't? That is because Mercedes wholly designed and built their diesel engines and made them to use petroleum Diesel fuel, not vegetable oil. Read your car's owners manual or service manual and you will see nothing mentioning vegetable oil.

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 12-25-2007 at 11:16 AM.
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  #34  
Old 12-25-2007, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Point out anything that says Mercedes designed the original engine or Dr. Rodolph Diesel assisted in the design of Mercedes' engines. You can't? That is because Mercedes wholly designed and built their diesel engines and made them to use petroleum Diesel fuel, not vegetable oil. Read your car's owners manual or service manual and you will see nothing mentioning vegetable oil.
This could go on forever. The Mercedes engine is based on Rudolph Diesel's design as are all diesel engines. That's what I was referring to. Let's end this and have a Great Holiday!
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  #35  
Old 12-25-2007, 12:10 PM
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This could go on forever. The Mercedes engine is based on Rudolph Diesel's design as are all diesel engines. That's what I was referring to. Let's end this and have a Great Holiday!
Lets not end this on your (and MANY other's) misconception of how Mercedes' engines operate.

They are based on the idea that a precisely metered and accurately timed fuel injection into a highly compressed (heated) space will auto ignite. The only thing Mercedes' engines have in common is his idea and a reciprocating piston. They are very different in every other aspect.

Just because Dr. Diesel made his engine to run on VO does not mean that ALL diesels can or should.

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 12-25-2007 at 12:16 PM.
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  #36  
Old 12-27-2007, 11:42 AM
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Forced, I see your point (although Im still wondering how high you bought your Exxon-Mobile stock). However, it is my contention that the engine runs BETTER on WVO (properly filtered, dewatered, and dispensed to the IP using a reputable 2 tank kit like Frybrids).

You've nay-sayed this to the point Im about ready to tear apart my motor at 267k miles and measure the fits, clearances, and compression. But you would prob still site the owners manual to me if I did.



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Before you say "For how long" I'll answer - its been a year and 650 gallons of waste veggie. Next year it will be 1300 gallons and I'll keep you posted.
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  #37  
Old 12-27-2007, 12:10 PM
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Forced, I see your point (although Im still wondering how high you bought your Exxon-Mobile stock). However, it is my contention that the engine runs BETTER on WVO (properly filtered, dewatered, and dispensed to the IP using a reputable 2 tank kit like Frybrids).
I guess it depends what you mean by "better." You are running a fuel with less energy content and a slower combustion speed, in effect you are running with you injection timing retarded. My guess is that the engine is quieter at idle and has less top end power. I can accomplish the same thing by adjusting my IP timing, and I suspect you could get yours running closer to normal by advancing you IP timing. It is possible that running a "de-tuned" engine will reduce wear and tear (aside from potential coking, injector, IP issues), it might be an interesting experiment (for someone else's engine).
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  #38  
Old 12-27-2007, 02:17 PM
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Here's what I mean by "better" :

1. I dont pay some terrorist supporting country $3.30 for every gallon I use (or any denomination thereof). In fact, I don't pay them squat. This benefit is immeasurable, unless you tend to support terrorist-friendly countries.

2. The performance is equivalent to that of diesel, even without tuning the IP for it (which is easily done). By equivalent, I mean it will run ~120 mph on veg oil and accelerate from 0-60 mph in 10-12 sec. The consumption averages about 19-20 mpg on veg oil.

I will, however, look into the road taxes issue. My goal isnt to skirt my fair share of state taxes. Its only to quit funding terrorist friendly countries with unnecessary fuel purchases. Unfortunately, they are intertwined.
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  #39  
Old 12-27-2007, 03:04 PM
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OK. Personally, I don't care if I'm supporting a "terrorist supporting country" (like canada, maybe) by buying their oil; if you think you're accomplishing something or making a statement, have a ball.

However, unless your "fuel" has the same (or better) heating value and density as #2 diesel fuel, it is unlikely that you are capable of "equivalent" performance. These engines are limited by the amount of fuel delivered, there are only so many BTUs availably in each gallon, and the maximum delivery rate is limited by the IP. Unfortunately, politics don't change the laws of thermodynamics. If you are getting acceptable performance, I guess that's good enough.

I'm glad to hear that you are planning to pay appropriate road taxes.
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  #40  
Old 12-27-2007, 05:29 PM
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Fads.
You act as if America is not a terrorist country. (That is a topic better left for OD).
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  #41  
Old 12-28-2007, 02:01 PM
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The performance is equivalent, but I think it uses a bit more veg oil than diesel. For instance, on diesel I can get about 20-23 mpg. On veg I get about 19-20 mpg. Im not racing this thing, but I do drive 80-85 mph in Atlanta traffic. I honestly cant tell a power difference, although there must be a very slight difference as veg oil has about 90% of the stored energy as dino. A small sacrifice to be able to kick Chavez in the nuts, for sure (sorry if you guys idolize him)

Tell the guy at Exxon I said "Hi" next time
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  #42  
Old 12-28-2007, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Lets not end this on your (and MANY other's) misconception of how Mercedes' engines operate.

They are based on the idea that a precisely metered and accurately timed fuel injection into a highly compressed (heated) space will auto ignite. ...

So that's how a Mercedes diesel engine works. And that differs from Diesel's original design, how?
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  #43  
Old 12-28-2007, 04:46 PM
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A small sacrifice to be able to kick Chavez in the nuts, for sure (sorry if you guys idolize him)
Sorry, I'm just not interested. I don't do politics.
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  #44  
Old 12-28-2007, 04:51 PM
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So that's how a Mercedes diesel engine works. And that differs from Diesel's original design, how?
Homework assignment: Does a benz diesel actually run a thermodynamic diesel cycle, or is it closer to some other cycle?

Extra credit: If not, what cycle does it actually use?

Extra, extra credit: What's the difference between these two designs?


These engines have about in common with the original diesel engine as a 777 has with the Wright brothers aircraft.
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  #45  
Old 12-28-2007, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig View Post
Homework assignment: Does a benz diesel actually run a thermodynamic diesel cycle, or is it closer to some other cycle?

Extra credit: If not, what cycle does it actually use?

Extra, extra credit: What's the difference between these two designs?
Well, according to you, a modern diesel engine works more along the lines of something called the "Air Standard Dual Cycle".

From what I can gather, it has to do with the very slow operating speeds of the early engines (around 100 RPM) vs. the high speeds of modern engines. The cycling of the piston happens much faster now, meaning that some of the fuel is burned near TDC but the rest has to burn after the power stroke is already underway.

I take it you are an engineer, to delve that far into diesel engine theory of operation. I've never studied thermodynamics, so I have to admit this stuff is mostly lost on me, although I find it mildly interesting.

Anyway, we're getting off on a tangent. Agreed, modern diesel engines (even a 617, if we can still call that "modern") operate somewhat differently than the earliest designs. But my point is, I don't see how it automatically follows that a 617 cannot or should not be operated on VO, based on engineering principles.

For the record, I have never put anything but pump diesel in any of my diesel vehicles.

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