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  #46  
Old 12-29-2007, 01:16 AM
Craig
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Looking up my old posts is cheating.

I wasn't just trying to be a smart ass. My point was that the design of the engine and the specified injection timing is optimized based on the combustion characteristics of a specific fuel specification (#2 diesel in this case). The trick is to match the piston speed with the speed of combustion an the expansion of the gasses at the desired engine rpm. That is why modern diesel engines inject the fuel significantly before TDC and allow some of the combustion to take place prior to the power stroke (unlike a pure diesel cycle where the combustion process, more or less, corresponds to the power stroke). The result is an optimized torque/power curve for that engine at a reasonable engine speed.

That does not mean you cannot burn other fuels, but the combustion characteristics will be different and the engine performance will be affected to some degree. You will be operating the engine in a way that it was not really designed to operate, but it may still run just fine. Most likely, the effect will be similar to operating with the injection timing retarded (smoother operation at low rpm and less peak power at higher rpm). I suspect that is the basis of peoples claims that their engines run "better/smoother/quieter" on SVO/WVO. I also suspect there is a greater risk of incomplete combustion with these slower burning fuels. I'm sure someone could design an engine that was actually optimized to run SVO (with a very specific fuel specification), but AFAIK that hasn't been done yet.

I was just trying to answer those folks who continuously claim that diesel engines are designed to run on SVO, not diesel fuel. That argument is really not applicable to "modern" engines that have been optimized for diesel fuel. To claim otherwise, is to ignore about a century of engine design evolution. I have no problem with people saying their engines run well on SVO/WVO, but they have no basis to claim the were actually designed to run on SVO/WVO. Maybe you have to be a complete techno-geek to care about that distinction, but that was my point.

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  #47  
Old 12-29-2007, 01:35 AM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig View Post
I was just trying to answer those folks who continuously claim that diesel engines are designed to run on SVO, not diesel fuel. That argument is really not applicable to "modern" engines that have been optimized for diesel fuel. To claim otherwise, is to ignore about a century of engine design evolution. I have no problem with people saying their engines run well on SVO/WVO, but they have no basis to claim the were actually designed to run on SVO/WVO. Maybe you have to be a complete techno-geek to care about that distinction, but that was my point.
Perfectly said and exactly the point I have been trying to make.
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  #48  
Old 12-29-2007, 01:46 AM
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It seems all these SVO/WVO threads go the same way:

SVO user: I found a great deal on VO/how do I...?/ANY VO-related topic
ForcedInduction: *wahhhhhh, you're a cheater! wahhhh!*
SVO user: *attempts to claim that SVO is superior performance-wise + politically*
Craig/others: *summarily prove that it cannot be, at least performance-wise*

It's the usual banter n' bs passed around ad nauseam.

This forum cannot be beat if you need help with non-SVO-related problems questions or concerns with your diesel MB. Probably the best source of information out there. Seriously though, if you want to talk WVO, you're much better off at the biodiesel.infopop.cc forum, or the greasecar.com forum.

You will NOT receive intelligent information on this forum on alternative fuel-related topics, period. Why? Because most of the advice-givers here have run little or no alternative fuels in their cars, ever. That doesn't stem the flow of advice because, hey, it's a forum. People talk whether they have a clue or not.

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  #49  
Old 12-29-2007, 01:51 AM
Craig
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Originally Posted by thesst View Post
This forum cannot be beat if you need help with non-SVO-related problems questions or concerns with your diesel MB. Probably the best source of information out there. Seriously though, if you want to talk WVO, you're much better off at the biodiesel.infopop.cc forum, or the greasecar.com forum.
Now, there's something I can agree with.
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  #50  
Old 12-29-2007, 02:25 AM
ForcedInduction
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Originally Posted by thesst View Post
Why? Because most of the advice-givers here have run little or no alternative fuels in their cars, ever.
Anecdotal evidence from individuals operating vehicles under completely uncontrolled conditions (and no two the same) and most likely not accompanied by engine teardown or engine oil analysis' are probably more than worthless. Having "run WVO" is qualification for nothing.
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  #51  
Old 12-29-2007, 03:37 AM
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"Anecdotal" evidence (and the fact that you actually believe no two WVO/SVO experiences have been the same truly does show the limited scope of your experience/knowledge) is still more than, let's see, NOTHING. hahaha.

Having run WVO is qualification for talking from experience about running WVO.

You are perfectly qualified to talk "theoretically" about the matter. Frankly though, if I'm looking for a mechanic (or even just someone to ask for advice) I don't look for the guy who knows about things only "theoretically". I look for the mechanic who's DONE the thing. You can continue to argue that you, ForcedInduction, are just as qualified to talk about running WVO as someone who actually does, but you're only making yourself look more and more ridiculous by doing so. Have fun!
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Last edited by thesst; 12-29-2007 at 03:45 AM.
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  #52  
Old 12-29-2007, 03:46 AM
ForcedInduction
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:liar:

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Originally Posted by thesst View Post
the limited scope of your experience/knowledge) is still more than, let's see, NOTHING. hahaha..
Which is EXACTLY what you know about my personal experiences. All you are doing is making yourself out to be an @ss.
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  #53  
Old 12-29-2007, 03:49 AM
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Oh? Then DO TELL... what ARE your "personal experiences" with running veggie oil in your car? This should be rich.
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  #54  
Old 12-29-2007, 04:54 AM
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Internal Error 404
 
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I know the answer, but Im not tellin...

.

I know the answer,

But Im not telling.

Lets hear it from Professor antiWVO himself. ForcedInDucktion

Have Fun !
Can't sleep clowns will eat me !
Can't sleep clowns will eat me !
Can't sleep clowns will eat me !
Can't sleep clowns will eat me !
Can't sleep clowns will eat me !

RichC


.
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  #55  
Old 12-29-2007, 05:07 AM
ForcedInduction
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I love how newbies come around here acting like they know it all and nobody else does while they themselves are complete unknowns with nothing to backup their position.

I have posted it in the past thesst, SEARCH. Come on, let's see your resume.

I have never once claimed to be a VO "master", only that I have seen what it can do, I have seen how it hacks up otherwise good cars, I know how illegal it is, I know it does not help the environment, I know it does not prevent terrorism and I know what I am talking about.

I choose not to use it because of my experience, not because of my opinion.

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 12-29-2007 at 05:14 AM.
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  #56  
Old 12-29-2007, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesst View Post
...
This forum cannot be beat if you need help with non-SVO-related problems questions or concerns with your diesel MB. Probably the best source of information out there. Seriously though, if you want to talk WVO, you're much better off at the biodiesel.infopop.cc forum, or the greasecar.com forum.

You will NOT receive intelligent information on this forum on alternative fuel-related topics, period. ...
I don't know...I thought Craig's explanation was pretty good! I've learned something, anyway.

BTW Craig, that wasn't cheating. Your earlier post was the only place I could find a clue to the homework assignment. Once I had the name of the ASDC cycle, I had something to Google.

Somebody mentioned a while back that it would be good to at least have a VO forum on this site, since it keeps coming up. Sounds like a good idea to me. I'm just a newbie here but I've noticed these VO threads have a way of turning vitriolic. I guess because it's such an "inflammatory" subject.

Seriously, I think it would help if those with the anti-alternative-fuels viewpoint could take a less bombastic approach, a less finger-pointing approach, especially with regard to the taxation issue. It seems to me the AF movement ultimately isn't about tax evasion, or political agendas. It's just inevitable that we will have to find alternatives for fossil fuels at some point. In the meantime, we're all starting to feel some economic incentive to start at least thinking about alternatives sooner, rather than later. My 0.02...
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  #57  
Old 12-29-2007, 11:51 AM
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Did I mention that I found a pretty good deal on VO?
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  #58  
Old 12-29-2007, 01:29 PM
Craig
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Originally Posted by 300GD View Post
I don't know...I thought Craig's explanation was pretty good! I've learned something, anyway.

BTW Craig, that wasn't cheating. Your earlier post was the only place I could find a clue to the homework assignment. Once I had the name of the ASDC cycle, I had something to Google.

Somebody mentioned a while back that it would be good to at least have a VO forum on this site, since it keeps coming up. Sounds like a good idea to me. I'm just a newbie here but I've noticed these VO threads have a way of turning vitriolic. I guess because it's such an "inflammatory" subject.

Seriously, I think it would help if those with the anti-alternative-fuels viewpoint could take a less bombastic approach, a less finger-pointing approach, especially with regard to the taxation issue. It seems to me the AF movement ultimately isn't about tax evasion, or political agendas. It's just inevitable that we will have to find alternatives for fossil fuels at some point. In the meantime, we're all starting to feel some economic incentive to start at least thinking about alternatives sooner, rather than later. My 0.02...
I was really just teasing about the whole "homework" thing, sorry to be a smart ass.

Unfortunately this subject has become pretty divisive, everyone (including me) seems to have a strong opinion. I try to limit myself to the factual issues and only chime in if I think something incorrect has been posted, I just hate to see incorrect information go unchallenged on this forum. It does tend to degrade pretty quickly though.

The possibility of a separate forum has been raised on several occasions, I understand both sides of the argument and have mixed feelings. On one hand there are plenty of common issues, on the other there are plenty of folks who don't want this forum to give the message that use of WVO is without risk. I don't know the best answer.
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  #59  
Old 12-29-2007, 02:06 PM
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Just to clear things up a little. WVO or VO is legal to run but there are numerous and varied tax issues that need to be resolved. These laws vary from state to state. Some states make it easy to pay any tax that is owed while others have bureaucracy layers that are next to impossible to navigate. Whatever 'tax' may be due is small compared to the 'free' WVO cost. Ironically, the same 'illegal' notion could be applied to electric cars as their fuel does not have road tax added. WVO and VO are more ecologically friendly, and have a much smalller carbon footprint, and since they have less sulfur, the soot factor is greatly reduced. (Soot is probably the biggest negative at this point, thus, the new ULSD). Overall, engines can benefit also because of the increased lubrication.
As to installations, I have seen some awful hack jobs and I've also seen some pretty nice installations BUT.......
I would not do it. Why? Simply put, WVO and VO still have the glycerin component that can gum up injectors. The 'secret' to running WVO or VO is that the fuel needs to be heated close to 200d F to thin it enough for a proper injector spray pattern. If it is not heated, you will have a problem in a short time. Actually, I should say you could have a number of problems in a short time.
The next problem with WVO is proper filtration and de-watering prior to usage. Needless to say, both are big issues and failure to take care of both will cause engine damage.

There is also the issue of the make, engine type, and year of the vehicle used for WVO/VO usage. Newer models have much more complicated expensive systems that do not take to WVO/VO near as well as older engines.

Now, as for me, I choose to run Bio-Diesel. Since I own 3 diesels, proper conversions to run WVO/VO would probably cost $3000 for all of them, PLUS, if I changed vehicles, I would need to transfer the systems.....Hmmm....no thanks.
I have my processor set up for under $800 and can process fuel for less than a dollar. So, using a conservative 26 MPG, just the difference in up front cost for me (and fuel processing cost) is equivalent to 60K miles or 2 1/2 years of driving. Even setting up for just one car the initial cost is over 10K miles......just not worth it.
Advantages? numerous. Filtration is a breeze as during the processing, most of the debris falls into the glycerin. Dewatering is also very easy. Pumped through a filter prior to the car and no problem. During the winter, I just vary the percentage of regular #2 for cold conditions as it blends with Bio-D totally. Bio-D by itself is also an excellent solvent, so any trash in your system from running years of #2 will come out. You would really be amazed how dirty #2 use to be. 20 years ago, diesel here in the states was very sub-quality to European fuel. (one of the many reason diesels were not pushed here)

Interesting article about military usage

Oh, and for the record....These engines were NOT designed to be run on WVO/VO. Period. If they had been, they would have had heated fuel systems, different injectors and different fuel pumps for starters. It's fortunate that the earlier diesels had a wide latitude for fuel, probably because of the varying qualities available years ago, which, is one more reason to expect more problems in running WVO/VO in newer model vehicles.
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  #60  
Old 12-29-2007, 05:30 PM
ForcedInduction
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Originally Posted by 300GD View Post
In the meantime, we're all starting to feel some economic incentive to start at least thinking about alternatives sooner, rather than later. My 0.02...
That is part of the problem. SVO/WVO is NOT a viable alternative fuel. It is a fad fuel that only has enough source oil to supply a very small percentage of the diesel vehicle population. It requires engine and fuel system modification to work and the suppliers (restaurants) will not always be willing to give it away for free or nearly free.

Biodiesel is a great alternative because it can supply a significant percentage of the population (if the right plants are used and politics don't screw things up) and it does not need any kind of vehicle modifications to work correctly.

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