Big Three Go After Diesel Market - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

TheDon · #31 01-01-2008, 04:27 PM

If the honda Diesel base model is like $15k.. I might go for one.. Might...

jshadows · #32 01-01-2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Those are pretty broad generalizations. Not always do you need a diesel especially when they are priced way above the gas engines. IIRC, a Powerstroke is at least $5000 above a gas model. If you don't need the towing capacity, is it such a good expense? I think not. You, like many diesel people, seem to think that diesel is the answer to any question. It isn't. In certain circumstances, it has the advantage. In others, not so.

It's not all about towing. Whether you are hauling something or not the diesel is far and above going to be more efficient pushing around a 6000lb truck than a poorly adapted and bloated gasoline engine. Engines like the Triton V10 make me laugh. What a complete waste. Who designed that engine? Exxon?

Now, whether the $5K premium is merited is another question. The Cummins diesel is designed to deliver reliable performance for a very long time (like their semi-truck engines). Perhaps the manufacturers should do some in-between models that balance the cost with reliability.

equipmentjunkie · #33 01-01-2008, 05:53 PM

Real diesels deliver better fuel economy, less maintenance, and longer life than gas engines. I bought my Dodge Ram diesel because I wanted a manual transmission, four-wheel drive, and a diesel engine. There wasn't any other alternative to a pickup truck at that time. My Ram has been extremely trouble-free in its 169K and delivers me 20-mpg or better.

Diesels tend to have a higher up-front cost, but return a large portion of the added cost at time of resale. I plan on selling my Ram in the coming months and it will bring many thousands more than if it had a 360 or V-10 gasser. The previous VW TDIs that I owned returned more the TDI diesel option cost. Economy, plus added value. Hmmm, why do I drive diesels?

aklim · #34 01-01-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshadows

trucks are a waste of money unless you're going to do something with it, like for example haul or tow. If you are going to haul or tow, then diesel is the only way to go. Therefore, every truck worth its salt should be diesel

.

Who says diesel is the ONLY way to go? I disagree. Now if you are thinking hauling large loads over long distances and high altitudes, yes. If I could be sure I wouldn't have to haul over 5000 feet, I'd be with a gas engine. I went with the Powerstroke because I wanted to haul 10000# loads up high altitudes and I would need more than NA for that. Take my folks. They haul a 5000# boat around WI for fishing. Why do they need a F250 Powerstroke? They can use an F150.

aklim · #35 01-01-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by equipmentjunkie

Real diesels deliver better fuel economy, less maintenance, and longer life than gas engines.

Diesels tend to have a higher up-front cost, but return a large portion of the added cost at time of resale. I plan on selling my Ram in the coming months and it will bring many thousands more than if it had a 360 or V-10 gasser.

The previous VW TDIs that I owned returned more the TDI diesel option cost. Economy, plus added value. Hmmm, why do I drive diesels?

That is the plus side of the diesel. The way you make it sound, diesels have no faults. That is simply not true. My diesel 606 has glow plug issues and fuel line issues. My Powerstroke has other issues. Till I got the diesels, I never had to buy a block heater to ensure a good start tomorrow.

Only if it has a decent engine behind it. I could have gotten an 03 or even 04 Powerstroke way easier than I got my 7.3 Powerstroke. Why? Because they were problematic from the get go. They fixed the problems in late 04. I could have gone across town and got a Ford Excursion Powerstroke but it was 6.0. There were plenty all around. More in the F250 or F350. I had to go 500 miles to get my Excursion.

How did you calculate that? Best I can find was that you get back the diesel option price in the resale provided you don't have too many miles. That may be just in my area. Not doubting you did but want to see how you calculated that.

aklim · #36 01-01-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshadows

It's not all about towing. Whether you are hauling something or not the diesel is far and above going to be more efficient pushing around a 6000lb truck than a poorly adapted and bloated gasoline engine. Engines like the Triton V10 make me laugh. What a complete waste. Who designed that engine? Exxon?

Now, whether the $5K premium is merited is another question. The Cummins diesel is designed to deliver reliable performance for a very long time (like their semi-truck engines). Perhaps the manufacturers should do some in-between models that balance the cost with reliability.

Ah, but here is a real life example and I did the math for the guy. He was deciding if he wanted an F250 diesel or F250 V10. He has a camper that he uses on vacations. Also he does a little yardwork on the side. I fill up with 4 gals of oil every 3K. The V10 was way less. He also uses it as a car. Every fuel station I have seen sells gas. Not every one sells diesel. His job requires he travels and bring stuff to customers. All in all, the diesel would kill him financially when the gas would do. If he went up 10000 feet, that might be different but he didn't.

It is worth it IF you are using the power. As I have said, diesel is NOT the holy grail of the automotive world nor is it the answer to everything. At 10 above, my diesel wouldn't do jack till I plugged it in. My gas Vette fired up without much trouble in spite of not having started it for a week.

ImBroke · #37 01-01-2008, 08:53 PM

aklim, here's another real life example for ya. Fuel costs. Let's say 20k miles driven per year. The "illustrious" V10, with it's massive 10mpg, uses 2k gallons of fuel, at 2.85, comes to $5700. Dad's Dodge Cummins, uses 1k gallons of fuel. Probably less, since it actually gets over 20, but using 20 for simplicity. Diesel here is 3.29, so that's $3290. Difference of 2410. Yes the diesels are more maintenance intensive, but not 2410 per year. BTW, he traded his Hemi for the diesel, because of both the crappy milage, and because he tows also.
Also, here's something else. Not everybody lives in the salt belt, so trucks down here last a lot longer body wise than up there. Not only that, but I don't plug mine in down here either. I plan on keeping my F350 for a long time. Got rid of my 2004 F150 because it seemed to be working too hard towing.

How's your Vette? I had an 02 Z06, and it was a total POS. If I get another one, it'll be an older one.

aklim · #38 01-01-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImBroke

The "illustrious" V10, with it's massive 10mpg, uses 2k gallons of fuel

Also, here's something else. Not everybody lives in the salt belt, so trucks down here last a lot longer body wise than up there. Not only that, but I don't plug mine in down here either. I plan on keeping my F350 for a long time. Got rid of my 2004 F150 because it seemed to be working too hard towing.

How's your Vette? I had an 02 Z06, and it was a total POS. If I get another one, it'll be an older one.

Thought the V10 was rated at 15-16 hwy and 12-13 city?

Sure, rub it in you @##@_@$#

We have a pic of a Toyota they took in on trade. 98, IIRC. Had it on a hoist and when the tech went to the bathroom and got back he found that the truck had BENT. About 45 degrees.

It wasn't the greatest because the PO was a jackass and didn't know how to take care of things. Now all is up to spec and just cosmetic stuff here and there. Real minor. Still, it is a joy to drive. The 383 and the beefed up trans made sure of that. Unfortunately I broke both spider gears in the posi unit. Anyways, that is history. The Dana 44 I put in to replace the wimpy Dana 36 is going to take care of that.

Hatterasguy · #39 01-01-2008, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshadows

trucks are a waste of money unless you're going to do something with it, like for example haul or tow. If you are going to haul or tow, then diesel is the only way to go. Therefore, every truck worth its salt should be diesel

.

Gas is perfectly fine to tow a small Bobcat from jobsite to jobsite, sleds, jet ski's, boats up to 25ft, and campers of about that. Since you can't load much into pickup truck beds it doesn't matter whats under the hood for that. Heck most trucks these days have monster pointless cabs, and short little beds. Can't even get an 8ft sheet of plywood in them! Heck my uncle builds a ton of houses each year and he has that Chevy 1500 SS, with 22in wheels.

This is what you use when you need to tow or hual serious stuff. Now thats a diesel pickup truck!

Skid Row Joe · #40 01-02-2008, 03:33 AM

It's also accurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Thats a pretty big generalization there.

It's also accurate more often than not........

equipmentjunkie · #41 01-02-2008, 06:53 AM

My prices come from the actuality of selling my TDIs and numbers from the truck come from AutoTrader.com, local dealer' truck prices, and the classified section of the Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel Register.

I have not found my diesels to be hard starting. I never plug mine in. My brother still talks about the time in '94 when it was 26-below when we both went out to start our trucks at the same time. My Cummins fired before his 350 Chevy gasser. The '99 F350 PowerStroke at work is a hard starter, however.

Diesels don't do well at short trips. Heat is a compression ignition engines friend. Diesels need to be brought up to operating temperature. As a Diesel Disciple, when people ask me about diesel as the fuel of their next vehicle, I will ask about their needs. If they don't put many miles on in a year, or have lots of short trips, a diesel vehicle is not the way to go.

#42 01-02-2008, 07:56 AM

Remember that the Cummins does not have any glowplugs and the intake air heater only comes into effect for 10 seconds below 60*f (20 seconds for -15*f and below). Try starting a cold PowerJoke without glowplugs at any temperature.

ImBroke · #43 01-02-2008, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Thought the V10 was rated at 15-16 hwy and 12-13 city?

It may be rated for that, and I have no personal experience to speak from. I was just quoting multiple people off of the Ford Truck forums.
Sounds like you eliminated the weak point of the Vette.

My Camaro's got a 383 also, but with everything I have going on, I've only gotten as far as the cam broken in, and a couple trips around the yard. We'll see.

Hattie, I love that pic, that will definitely haul. I have both, the big cab and the 8' bed. After only the 6' in the last truck, I told myself I'd never do that again. Not as impressive as your pic, but it does the job for me.

I think this is a good time for them to try it again, but if they screw it up again, it'll be a long time before they regain american trust. imo

#44 01-02-2008, 08:00 AM

Something about the idea of a Dodge 3500 4x4 with a regular cab, short bed, dually and a Cummins gets me all tingly.

777funk · #45 01-02-2008, 08:20 AM

I have a Ford F-250 Turbo Diesel IDI. I don't pull anything. I like it because if I need to pickup a couch I can. I hate asking people to borrow a truck.

Why Diesel just to haul me, my wife, and my small kids around? Because I like the smell; I like the sound; I like the torque! And because instead of getting 170k out of a quiet gasoline F-150 and 17mpg, I'll most likely get 3-500k out of the Diesel and closer to 20mpg. Sure there's probably some gas engine truck that gets 300k regularly now. But also from a service standpoint do I want to be able to fix it? Of course I do. Computers (and this is coming from a guy who's a E.E.) do not last as long as a mechanically controlled engine. Why? 1. Heat 2. Corrosion

It just so happens heat and I.C.'s are not friends. Really not even transistors for that matter. Also, if you have a wire and harness that controls your idle, fuel/air mix, spark timing computer, and whatever else, eventually those harnesses will corode. What happens then? Bad connections. What happens then? All of the sudden the engine doesn't run right or won't even start. And try finding which connection of (30-40 harnesses) went bad. YIKES! I love electronics but I don't love that. That's why I went to school 5-6 years to be an Electrical Engineer instead of 2 years to be a technician! I can live without those headaches.

But when something mechanical breaks it's easy. Look obvious places for broken parts. Listen for weird noises. Check for obvious things like fuel leaks and injectors getting fuel. There are no obvious things with electronics. You can't see when an IC is bad unless it exploded which is rare. And testing is near impossible on something that complex yet small. Connectors are almost as bad. Loose wires and corrosion are much harder to see than a fuel leak somewhere.

So... why Diesel? I think there are still plenty of reasons to drive a diesel anything. I'd have my riding lawnmower be diesel if I could justify spending 10k on one. It just makes more sense.