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  #1  
Old 02-14-2008, 11:00 AM
juanesoto's Avatar
Diesel freak!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 300
Post To convert or to no convert...

Hello folks! It nice to be back in the forums! I was away for a while because my benz was at the paint shop (I rearended my dad's truck ) and to be honest with you, I felt sad reading and posting in the forums without my car being around.

Anyway, I've been doing some research and it seems there are huge differences between the 617 NA and the 617 turbo, in terms of internal components.

After seeing a 617 NA and a 617 torn apart side by side, I first noticed the oil squirters. I've heard the turbo internals are hardened, but at sight, they are the same as the NA. So here go the questions:

Besides the squirters, are the engine blocks the same? Seat diameters, oil pump, etc?

Are the crankshafts the same? The camshafts?

Are the engine heads the same? Valves?

I know some will state that is easier to change the whole engine, however I have access to some nice used pistons and conn rods from a turbo engine and the guy is willing to accept my NA parts in trade.

My block was overhauled about 80k Km ago, so it has everything quite new including the sleeves. Considering this and the sentimental value the engine has (my first diesel), I'd like to keep my block...

I can do the job of replacing the rods and the pistons... but I don't feel like removing the head... Also I can tapper the oil passage to install the oil squirters...

Any thoughts on this? Thanks for you advice guys!
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1982 W123 300D NA Euro, 300K Miles, 4-speed manual, 3.46 rear diff, early W126 front brakes, Penta rims with 205/60R15 FH900's, custom fitted (by me) audio system, more to come into the money pit... Soon to be installed: Bilstein HD, R107 front discs and 4-piston calipers, HD Suspension springs, wagon front swaybar.

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  #2  
Old 02-14-2008, 11:02 AM
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Location: Sonoma Wine Country
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Sodium-filled valves.
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"Buster" in the '95

Our all-biodiesel family
1995 E300D (W124) . .239,000 miles My car
1996 E300D (W210) . .313,000 miles Wife's car
Santa Rosa population 170,685 (2012)
Total. . . . . . . . . . . . 722,685
"Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz."
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  #3  
Old 02-14-2008, 11:15 AM
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I would rather poke needles in my eye than mess with a nice euro car, epically with on 80 K on a rebuild, I urge you too forget about trying too convert it to a turbo. NOT a good idea.
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #4  
Old 02-14-2008, 11:31 AM
juanesoto's Avatar
Diesel freak!
 
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Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
I would rather poke needles in my eye than mess with a nice euro car, epically with on 80 K on a rebuild, I urge you too forget about trying too convert it to a turbo. NOT a good idea.
I thought about that, but I could use some more power, maily for passing. I's also considering getting a 5-speed gearbox ($800-$850 down here) and a slower diff. This will allow me to have about the same top speed (100 MPH) with a wider option of gear to pass and take off....

What do you think about this other option?
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1982 W123 300D NA Euro, 300K Miles, 4-speed manual, 3.46 rear diff, early W126 front brakes, Penta rims with 205/60R15 FH900's, custom fitted (by me) audio system, more to come into the money pit... Soon to be installed: Bilstein HD, R107 front discs and 4-piston calipers, HD Suspension springs, wagon front swaybar.

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  #5  
Old 02-14-2008, 11:39 AM
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I think in the long run you would be better trying to find a trubo engine and putting that in your car rather than cobble together and NA and turbo setup into a turbo engine. The valves are different in the two, they have different part numbers, although I don't know how they differ.

I think a tranmission and diff. swap would be a better way to go. And if you do that and then one day come across a good turbo engine you can still plop it in and be ready to go.
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  #6  
Old 02-14-2008, 11:43 AM
rrgrassi's Avatar
mmmmmm Diesel...
 
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I want one of those 5 speeds...
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06 VW Jetta TDI 210K miles

03 VW Golf TDI 5 speed 372K Miles

RIP--Lost in fire...82 300D 322K was My Daily Driver-On the search for a w126 now...

90 Dodge D250 5.9 Cummins/5 speed. 350K
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  #7  
Old 02-14-2008, 12:16 PM
sd300td's Avatar
huh?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biodiesel300TD View Post
I think in the long run you would be better trying to find a trubo engine and putting that in your car rather than cobble together and NA and turbo setup into a turbo engine.
OR, spend nearly the same amount of money and find an entire 300 turbo diesel...
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1982 240 D, 308,000 - 321,127 miles (sold)
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  #8  
Old 02-14-2008, 01:02 PM
Stevo's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanesoto View Post
I thought about that, but I could use some more power, maily for passing. I's also considering getting a 5-speed gearbox ($800-$850 down here) and a slower diff. This will allow me to have about the same top speed (100 MPH) with a wider option of gear to pass and take off....

What do you think about this other option?
I agree with the others. I suggest you leave a little early and not worry about passing anybody, you went south to enjoy the tropical, slower pace, right
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #9  
Old 02-14-2008, 01:43 PM
juanesoto's Avatar
Diesel freak!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 300
Well, changing the whole car would be ok, but I'm not getting rid of my benz... That would feel like getting rid of a friend...

Also, down here, these old benz go for over $4k-5$k so it's not worth the money... Maybe if at some point I find a crashed w123 with a good turbo engine I might consider doing an engine swap and maybe selling the NA engine.

One thing that is keeping me reluctant to do this is that NA engine feel more "juicy" off the line than a turbo engine. Why could this be? Camshaft profile? Pump timing?
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1982 W123 300D NA Euro, 300K Miles, 4-speed manual, 3.46 rear diff, early W126 front brakes, Penta rims with 205/60R15 FH900's, custom fitted (by me) audio system, more to come into the money pit... Soon to be installed: Bilstein HD, R107 front discs and 4-piston calipers, HD Suspension springs, wagon front swaybar.

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  #10  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:02 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanesoto View Post
Besides the squirters, are the engine blocks the same? Seat diameters, oil pump, etc?
No. The oil pump is a chain driven high flow pump on the turbo model and the block has fittings for the oil squirters.

Quote:
Are the crankshafts the same? The camshafts?
No. The crankshaft is hardened to take the added stress. The camshaft has completely different lobe timing.

Quote:
Are the engine heads the same? Valves?
The head is the same but the exhaust valves are sodium filled to conduct heat better.

Quote:
I know some will state that is easier to change the whole engine, however I have access to some nice used pistons and conn rods from a turbo engine and the guy is willing to accept my NA parts in trade.
Not worth it unless you can measure them to see if they can be used in the first place.

Quote:
My block was overhauled about 80k Km ago, so it has everything quite new including the sleeves. Considering this and the sentimental value the engine has (my first diesel), I'd like to keep my block...
Prepare to spend a good amount of money to get it up to snuff.

Quote:
I can do the job of replacing the rods and the pistons... but I don't feel like removing the head... Also I can tapper the oil passage to install the oil squirters...
You have to remove the head to change the pistons or machine the block anyway.

Quote:
Any thoughts on this?
Buy a turbo engine and swap the entire thing.

Quote:
One thing that is keeping me reluctant to do this is that NA engine feel more "juicy" off the line than a turbo engine. Why could this be? Camshaft profile? Pump timing?
Nothing at all to do with the engine and everything to do with the differential ratio. Your non-turbo has a 3.46 while the turbo has a 3.07. Lower ratio means the engine has greater leverage against the wheels to accelerate.
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  #11  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:20 PM
Dieselkraut23's Avatar
w123 ein super auto
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
The head is the same but the exhaust valves are sodium filled to conduct heat better.
The head is the same but not the cam.....the euro cam is different from the US na motor and the turbo motor ....if you put a US na motor from the early 80s next to a euro NA motor from 82 or later they are VERY different besides the pump....thats why they are peppy not JUST because of the rear end....its the cam.....sadly though you cant use it on the turbo motor.
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  #12  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:22 PM
Dieselkraut23's Avatar
w123 ein super auto
 
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and as said before just get a complete turbo motor.

the pistons are different
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  #13  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:27 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselkraut23 View Post
The head is the same but not the cam.....the euro cam is different from the US na motor and the turbo motor ....if you put a US na motor from the early 80s next to a euro NA motor from 82 or later they are VERY different besides the pump....thats why they are peppy not JUST because of the rear end....its the cam.....sadly though you cant use it on the turbo motor.
That is debatable. A lot of it can be attributed to maintenance, wear, blow by, oil type, fuel quality, filter(s) restriction, tire pressure, drivetrain losses, etc between the cars. Later 240D engines also got a few HP boost from 65hp to 72hp. The non-turbo 617 probably got a similar boost in europe.

Post some documentation that shows they have different lobe profiles.

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 02-14-2008 at 03:46 PM.
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  #14  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:40 PM
juanesoto's Avatar
Diesel freak!
 
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Great piece of information Forced! Thanks.

So, assuming I'll change my engine at some point and I'll do some work in the M pump I have in the NA engine (I've got 6.5 mm elements from a truck engine) to install it in a turbo engine, will my gearbox stand the power of a tweaked pump? I already have a disassembled M pump and I'm pretty sure how to use the stop lever to limit the rack movement and install an actuator to use as an ALDA. I haven't yet figured how to adjust the fuel delivery from the outside of the pump, like in Myna pumps...

Bottom line, if I manage to make the pump capable to handle something around 175 HP, will the gearbox stand that figure?
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1982 W123 300D NA Euro, 300K Miles, 4-speed manual, 3.46 rear diff, early W126 front brakes, Penta rims with 205/60R15 FH900's, custom fitted (by me) audio system, more to come into the money pit... Soon to be installed: Bilstein HD, R107 front discs and 4-piston calipers, HD Suspension springs, wagon front swaybar.

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  #15  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:48 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanesoto View Post
will my gearbox stand the power of a tweaked pump?
The gearbox can take it, it takes everything I throw at mine.

Quote:
I already have a disassembled M pump and I'm pretty sure how to use the stop lever to limit the rack movement and install an actuator to use as an ALDA.
That is how Myna does it.

Quote:
Bottom line, if I manage to make the pump capable to handle something around 175 HP, will the gearbox stand that figure?
Very likely.
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