Diesel so expensive here
 

Yesterday I was taliking to a friend in Europe, over there nearly half of all passenger cars are diesel and the price of diesel fuel is roughly 30% less than gasoline, here in US diesel is 5% more expensive than premium gas, why?
Europe is every bit as dependent on foreign oil, even more so than the US, so all factors for pricing diesel apply to them equally, and Europe had the ULSD for a much longer time, so how does one explain the price difference ratio? a rip-off?

Vahe
240D 77

Supply and demand. Europe has over 50% of new cars sold Diesel while the US is less than 5%, including pickups. Little demand so the cost to produce is high.

that 30% lower than gas price is still double what we pay over here is it not? what are you paying, like $1.5/liter or something? I believe, it's due to heating oil production, and distribution, and of course, it's high because we will pay it.

A higher amount of people in Europe rely on heating oil (diesel) to heat their homes, which makes it expensive there....and there's a LOT of fuel tax also. Which is GOOD, because they have nice SMOOTH roads that don't destroy their cars. You can barely drive around here the roads have gotten so bad.

Diesel is expensive in the US because the refiners are only working the meet the bare minimum of diesel needed. Refineries here are set up to produce gasoline for the most part, and a lot less diesel. So with the increase in trucking we've seen over the past several years, everyone is competing for diesel.....if they would build in more refining capacity for diesel it'd alleviate the problem somewhat.

A big part of it is also Big Oil + the government. They know that if 50% of the US drove diesels, their profits would sky dive because of a much lower demand for fuel as all those cars/trucks would be far more efficient. So they lobby to keep diesels out of the picture and force people to keep using a ton of gasoline.

My dad was just in Germany for 3.5 weeks in January and said diesel is around $6.50 - $7 a gallon when you do the conversion.....and gasoline is between $7.50 and $8.50 a gallon. :eek: So before you complain too much, think about that. ;)

I read in Car and Driver last night that gasoline in Germany is $7.00 a gallon. Whowee! Ours seems like a bargain compared to that. I think the government makes it artificially high there to encourage people to ubuy diesel cars.

That would actually be counter to the theory of supply and demand wouldn't it? If a product is in little demand then the price would trend lower in order to induce more demand and vice versa.

One theory I have heard to justify the high cost of diesel is that the refining process has had to be modified to produce ULSD and those costs are being passed on to us schmucks the consumers.

Why should they care? What you don't buy, they can sell. It's not like we are the only buyer. Load it onto a ship and they can sell it to most anywhere. You can always use fuel in the world.

When comparing fuel costs in different countries their average wage base and tax setup has to be examined. I think north america does not have the highest wage structures by far. Could be wrong yet things I hear indicate otherwise.

Other way around. High volume items are cheaper to produce. They don't want to induce more Diesel demand. The refineries are set up to produce mostly gasoline, it would cost them money to shift production focus to something else.

Because that would mean less cheap gas available over here. Diesel can be cracked down into more gasoline.

I can see that. However, my question is that if you don't buy their diesel, what is stopping them from dumping it into a tanker and send it to somewhere that will buy it?

Storing it in a tank and selling it later.

Very true. In Germany the minimum wage is like 8 or 9 euro per hour....thats like $14-15 US per hour! nearly 3x the US federal min wage! :eek: I wouldn't care about higher fuel prices at all if I was making $13+ an hour at my school job!

..they also have higher taxes in Europe, but more services like health care. It is impossible to compare small pieces of the picture.

Since we truck everything across the country (though we have a very good RR system in this country) loads of diesel gets used.
The oil companies had an epiphany that raising the price of diesel would make them more money and BIG Oil is still bigger than the Teamsters so Big Oil Wins!
I think the price of diesel is the bigger reason Exxon-Mobil made $36B in profits last year.

Thirty Six BILLION in profit. Let that roll around the mouth for a minute or two. 36 BILLION. Wow, boggles my puny mind.

That's a scary huge number. Many people in government are also undoubtedly reaping benefits, or else there would be some sort of regulation on energy prices to keep things a little more realistic... lets face it, where are those 36B$ profits actually going? I highly doubt it is going to improving energy technology...

I got a bigger number 404 Billion. That is what they spent to make that 36 billion. I doubt you could understand the significance of it if 36 billion can boggle your puny mind.

Even better than the pizza business if you can believe it.:D Pizza rolling around inside your mouth still taste better though.
I remember the introduction of pizza in my Toronto neighbourhood a couple of years back. 1.40 for a single choice 9 inch and no or very few customers. That outlet actually did not survive.
Nothing wrong with their product either in my opinion. Especially compared to those cardboard units sold at chain stores in the freezer section now. I can barely stand to eat a slice of them. Probably taste like 36 billion perhaps. Or worse.

It wasn't all that long ago that diesel was a fair bit less than regular unleaded. I've been driving diesels for 25 years. If anything there are more of them on the road today than there were 5-10 years ago when the prices started rising past gasoline.

Are you serious?! Wow!

Damn! Why didn't I ever buy any Exxon stock? You really can't fight the big corporations. A better strategy is to just invest in them and try to let the dividends offset the cost of living increases.

And your point is?

Yes, the company spent money. All companies do.
I own TWO businesses, BTW, I'm not unaware of how business
works.
But oil and gas are one of the things that can make or break
the economy.
If fuel prices go up, it costs more to ship things across the country.
When it costs more, the end consumer pays the bill.
If the end consumer cannot afford to pay more for fuel, food,
clothing, etc then they cannot BUY the things needed to go to
work, feed their families and put clothes on their backs.
If the Exxon-Mobils of the country could make a few bucks less
in PROFIT (that what's left AFTER all the bills are paid, BTW)
then maybe those who are in the Have-nots column could afford
fuel, food, medicine, clothing and an occassional night out with
the family.
Notice that I added medicine and the occassional night out.
Medicine is a need that many have to go without because other
things get too expensive (food trucked by diesel trucks across the country).
The occassional night out is needed for the economy to flurish.

So, I get it.
I don't get when anyone other than those rich with oil stocks aren't outraged when oil companies announce $36B in profits when our economy is in the sinker.

Maybe, just maybe, demand is creeping up on supply (oil is getting scarcer and harder to get). Yes I'm talking about peak oil. Yes, I put my flame suit on already.

Or

They're a bunch of bastards that make me constantly broke and take all my pick n pull money

LOL! http://www.oil-price.net/

The Chinese are buying lots of oil and other things. That has really strained the supply of commodities around the world.

i think we are forgetting a large segment of diesel use in this country, and that is OTR trucks. think how many millions of trucks are on the road and how poor the fuel economy thereof. i'd be willing to bet it's not a supply/demand issue in comparison to other countries.

At the last fill up of my E300D, diesel was 108.9 pence per litre.

I'm sorry, but there are a couple of beastly conversions;

So, that's 108.9 pence per 0.264172051242 US gallons

So, that's $2.16293 0.264172051242 US gallons

or, $8.19 per US gallon.

Here's the UK minimum wage structure; (although, if you're skilled, you're some way above this)

• Workers aged 22 and over - £5.52 per hour
• Workers aged 18-21 - £4.60 per hour
• Workers aged 16-17 - £3.40 per hour

So, before tax, a minimum wage earner can almost afford a gallon of diesel per hour worked.

Don't get me going about tax though! Direct tax accounts for about 30% of our money, while indirect taxes, like sales taxes take about the same again. We do have a National Health Service (if hospital acquired infections are your thing!), but apart from building the odd road, they tend to waste the rest of it!

What does each business of your's spend and what is the percentage of profit? IIRC, they brought in 404 of which 36 is profit. What is the big deal?

I don't have oil stocks. However, the oil companies have NO obligation to make less or more profits because your economy is in the sinker or if it is doing well.

I disagree.

Please don't quote me, but I beleive XOM owns ~3% of world oil reserves, CVX less, and the rest of the US based companies so little they hardly matter.

None of them set the price for a barrel of oil.

Your complaints should be directed to OPEC for controling output, BRIC for using too darn much and our Fed Gov for creating roadblocks such that exploration is all but impossible except in deep water and that new refineries can't be built due to EIR's to increase our refining capacity.

Where you you when big oil was floundering in the 70's & 80's when oil was stuck at $10 a barrel. I dont think oil broke $30 until almost 2000. Did you bang your drum for them then lobbying for tax credits or bailouts?

Run $10 for 37 years at 3-3.5% inflation and tell what you think you should be paying a barrel.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18097600/

$3000 dollar cars for sale in India/China will seal this deal.

Criminals exercising their license to steal is the answer you are looking for.

2500 dollar cars will be such a piece of crap two things can happen.

They will (maybe) not be pieces of crap and have widespread use, destroying the world.

They will be crappy and break in the first year of use, taking them off the road.

I believe in the second.

Diesel it what is left over when they make gas....now take that left over diesel and squeeze a lil bit more gas out of it...oh no look at that now there is more gas to sell and less diesel ...time to jack up the price on diesel and have extra gas...kill two birds with one stone...thats why diesel is more.


some places in cali and other states actaully still sell diesel at a cheaper price then super....why i have no idea but they are out there.

Not really. Diesel and gasoline are two separate things that are refined out of crude oil. Diesel isn't "what's left" after gasoline is made, it's just another fuel out of many that come from the crude. Diesel is made into gasoline by catalytic cracking which breaks up the longer diesel molecules into shorter gasoline molecules. If they didn't crack other fuels into gasoline, the production figures would be drastically different and gas would be much more expensive than it is now.

And yes, my XOM is not going anywhere! I can't remember when I first got that...I've at least doubled my money :cool:

$2500 doesnt go far to build a car here, but for a plant whose workers are making $0.40/hr, $2500 is a lot of car.

also, isnt all of the new low sulfur restrictions causing a lot of the recent spike along with the supply going to $100/barrel

Nope, I was 10-15 years old.

I was the same age in the early 70's. We both should have been beating the drum for them to get whatever breaks/credits they could get then so that they could have increased proven reserves and lessened our dependence on others now. Was a period of Stagflation; not unlike what we are moving toward currently although oil didnt increase in cost then for 20 years. We got a 20 year discount then China and India woke up and took that discount away. Not Big Oils doing, or really OPEC's as they are already pumping close to all they can. What would help most (other than a slowdown in China and India) is if Iraq could pump at capacity, and if Iran's and Venezuela's leadership didnt hate us so much and continualy threaten to reduce supply.

Lower sulfur content required
 

I don't have time to do the research but aren't we all aware that the US now requires a lower sulfur content diesel to be sold? That has to cost more to produce. I wonder if the other countries are still allowing a higher sulfur content and cheaper refining process?
Charles

Oh well get there... were allready at 4$ a gallon.. But the difference is.. well be at 7$ a gallon... with horrible roads..

keep in mind, germany has nice roads, but the entire country is smaller than Texas, their roads are mostly concentrated in cities with less raods between the cities instead of the urban sprawl we have and they pay some serious taxes. I think I prefer dodging the potholes

cost me $74.62 to fill up the e300d last night. Ouch.

Europe switched to lower sulfur diesel a long time ago, we are just doing that here in US, despite that their cleaner diesels were always priced less than their gasolines, and that was my main question, they are just as dependent as we are, same refining isuues apply to them, so why is diesel priced lower than gas in Europe and higher than gas in the US of A?

Vahe
240D 77

Diesel is NOT always cheaper in Europe
 

In the UK diesel has been consistently more expensive than gasoline for several years - due to the surging demand for the stuff......

I wish. It costs me about $140 to fill up my 65 litre tank although I can reduce that by buying veggie oil.

Diesel is more expensive in the UK, because its taxed at a higher rate. Duty is applied to a litre of fuel, and then VAT on top of that. The VAT is calculated on the price of the litre of fuel and the duty combined - so we are taxed on the tax!

Its not so bad though because I charge my clients for my mileage and I don't have to pay VAT so in reality it costs me nothing to drive the car (excepting running costs and depreciation).

Do you or do you not want companies to make profits? :confused: Do you want US companies to be unprofitable? :confused::confused:

I want as many companies - big and small - to make as much profit as possible! Profit is not a dirty word. Profitable companies hire people, thereby keeping out economy out of the "dumper."

Sorry i had a buddy that worked at a refinery and thats what he told me ...he also said they got crapp fuel for free...so either he just didnt know the full detail or what i dont know.

Tax is $0.14/gal in Wyoming, less than half of the average, we have our own wells and refineries, no imported oil, no transportation costs, but we pay about the same as the rest of the country. Opportunistic pricing, that is all it is, licensed to steal and not ashamed to feel around in the bottom of your pockets.

Have you actually seen their roads? They are flawless, everywhere. Its a pleasure to ride on them.

Germany has 140,700 miles of roads, the USA has 3.79 million miles of roads (insane)....but still.

There have been numerous reports of hour our country's infrastructure is crumbling. Buildings, pipes, sewers, bridges, roads, dams, everything is falling apart, and there's no money to fix it....we all know where that money is going.....and its not in the US. :rolleyes:

My city, Grand Rapids MI, has 640 miles of roads....they are alloted enough money every year to resurface FIVE miles....IF the winter is gentle. This year they spent almost all the budget already on salt, plowing, and filling potholes with junk. So they say they might not be able to do any resurfacing at all. The city engineer said that something like 80% of the cities roads are considered in "poor" shape, while only like 5-10% are "good". Insanity.

Also, in Florida your idea of bad roads is different from that of a Michigan person. I went to FL last year, and their roads are AMAZING compared to Michigan. Georgia too....all so smooth and nice. You don't have the freeze cycles that destroy the pavement like we do.

We have some roads around here in such bad shape that it WILL break things on your car unless you come to a crawl and gently *unimog* your way over it. I should make a video. The other day I was crusing along at 35mph when I saw a HOLE in the road that would have killed my car....I jammed on the brakes and managed to stop right before it....it was probably 2x2 feet in size...and over a foot deep. And those are allll over the place. It snarls traffic and breaks things.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120415981342798215.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
So the break for big oil is over...( if it makes it all of the way through)
We still move most everything in the USA by diesel power. Be it Truck, ship, or Rail.
guess who is going to pay even more?
I am just holding onto my wallet, and trying to decide how soon to buy a horse and buggy.

Saw one 76 station today selling diesel for $4.29, about .90 more than rug, and .50 more than same-brand stations (owned by Conoco-Phillips), across the San Fernando Valley region of Los Angeles.

It's $3.64 here in Austin TX, and we are selling B100 for $3.39. I can't image people paying $3.64 a gallon. Some of our clients go through 1,000's of gallons a month.

I'm sure that Bush will sort out the high oil prices.... now that he's aware of the issue :laugh3:

The day you make him Emperor, he might.