Are VW TDI Engines as tough as Mercedes W123 Diesels?
 

Are VW TDI Engines as tough as Mercedes W123 Diesels? have any of you Diesel heads had one apart or looked at it? How beefy is the injection pump?

Somehow I dont think so. After all they have a rubber timing belt. Something tells me they have some aluminum in them. I haven't even looked at one yet, but I heard that they are good for 300K miles, which actually isnt much.

I remember on one W123 engine I had, I was messing around wirh a self designed mod to my Crankcase Ventilation system and the hose got kinked and I blew all my oil down to 1/2 a quart and one of my rods was bad after that. You could hear it knocking at idle even.
Well I thought the engine would die within a month, but it went on and on and on for 3 years, and I even drove the car on 800 mile trips.

Which is why I still have my W123 300D fully restored.

Something tells me the VW TDI engines aren't bad but they are way overpriced on the used car market and you would be hard pressed to find parts for one like us W123 owners where every yard is a potential goldmine!...

Two words: timing belt.

You could ask these guys:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/

You've messed with a Volvo diesel before. A distant cousin.......

aahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaa...

no. they are not as "tough" or robust as the 616 or the 617.

I've got a '96 Passat TDI that I purchased new. It has 340K miles on it presently.

The timing belt is rubber and has a 60K mile rating. It is well known that it had better be changed within that interval. The later TDI's have a 100K rated belt.

I purchased the car for expected longevity of the engine, at least, and the fuel economy. The best mpg I got was 50. I figure I got my money's worth out of it right now.

By the way, I'm still on the original clutch and turbo.

Apples and oranges.

.:)

Bait thread?

VW or Benz Hmmm
 

I had considered getting a Vdub for my daughter. She's in the learning stage, but I plan ahead:D. She has a strong preference for manual tranys, so my 300SD & CD are out. I think we'll go with a 240d though. I think it's a tougher car if she gets hit, and she doesn't mind the lower acceleration, especially if it also comes with dependability,endurance, and reasonable economy. The only real concern I have is starting any diesel here (western Canada)when it gets really cold.

Are VW TDI diesels as good as Mercedes Benz W123 Diesels? No!;) Aluminum head and rubber timing belt. Good engines, but not as good as a 616 or 617

I'm with you.
Like when did 300K become not really that much? "300K miles, which actually isnt much"

See I took the bait. :)

yawn

Here is a better one.
Are Mercedes V-8 gas motors as fast and tough as the old Chevy 327 and Boss 302?

It appears that high mileage engines in both cases are out there.

The real question deals with the quality of the rest of the car.

Would you still want to be driving it when it rolls over the 300K mark?

Jim

Since, in 2008 dollars, any M-B would be roughly double the price of any VW would you expect them to be equal in quality?

Very true, I would consider buying a newish VW for my kids though.

He's always had threads like this over the years. Can't comment on the bait angle, but can't rule it out either.....;)

We like our Jetta TDI. JimmyL rode in it a few weeks ago. We have finally hit the 500 miles using 3/4 of a tank now.

Your new around here, hes not a "bate thread" person:)

YES, and NO! Timing belt, tensioner and water pump= $250-$300 every 80k miles. EGR valve gets clogged every 3 months because of the lower cetane in the US fuel. Turbo dies before 200k. 50MPG HELL YES!!! Lots of POWER! Lots of TORQUE! Great manual trannsmision. Car keeps it's value...
The aluminum head is fine, except you can easily strip the glow plug threads!!! OUCH!
Overall the 1.9 TDI would go 300k+ miles if maintained right!
If you are a D.I.Y, I do recomend them. They are a awesome car to drive and even tune!!

I think Carrameow has been and is an awesome forum member. His stories are legendary and he has contributed technically also.
Having said that, there is no question that over the years he submits threads such as this. Whether or not I would term it "baiting" is open to debate, but he enjoys the responses it generates.
Anybody having pulled parts from a junkyard in winter in their drawers has a lifetime exemption for pretty much anything.....;)
:D

As tough as? is the question. Why? They both propel the car. They both run on diesel. One gets twice the mileage as the other. One pushes the car to 60 much faster than the other. If you ask a bunch of ducks who is better looking- a duck or a swan, what do you think the answer will be?

I'll rate engine toughness another way
 

(I just broke my ABA gasser motor doing this...)


You could point a pressure washer at any place in my 240D's engine bay, and leave it there (for a while), and the engine would start right up 99% of the time.

Do that to a TDI motor ? your percentage is down to 70% or 80% - there are too many connectors, too many sensors, too many computers.

I'm not saying that you cant wash a TDI engine, but you need to be more careful.




That said, you CAN compare an OM617 and a TDI - They are both engines made to power mid-size sedans. You could assume that as far as transporting people goes, a 1985 300D and a 1999 Passat TDI are equally functional (they both hold 4 people in acceptable comfort and have a trunk- you can argue whether or not you need airbags, or an MB Star on the front to transport 4 people). The cost of the engine and car package arent very close, ($5k for the 300D, $10K for the passat ?) but these prices are still wayy below the cost of a 2008 Passat TDI (if sold) or 2008 E320 CDI) or even the cost of a Chevy Malibu (another mid-size sedan).

its a fair comparison. My grading scale is shown above =)

-John

the only reason i have a MB is the timing belts on the older IDI engines were only good 30-60K miles i got sick of changing them.. the newer TDI have same cost but at 100K miles not as much working by like 1/2 or less 10K mile oil changes and 30-50K fuel filter changes and u can add a cat 2 micron filter to them for like 110$ there awsome besides the 90-110 hp and 35-45mpg
but saying all that i drive a 82 300d to work every day

O really liked their Jetta. I felt like I was in a cockpit. Smooth power and quick starting.
Having said that, I enjoyed his 300D more.......:)

Without a doubt!
It's still the funniest thread I've read in a long time!

However, a tdi probably doesn't ooze as much as the 616/617's so it doesn't really need to be cleaned as much in the first place. :D

Here's a good question about the tdi's.....why are the timing belts such an issue? Are they hard on them or something?

Our caravan is supposed to have a 90k timing belt change interval on the 3.0 V6 mitsubishi under the hood, its coming up on 94k on the original....we're not changing it. ($700 at shop, or 3 years in the garage tearing everything apart to get to it) So....we'll see how long it lasts, when it snaps its off to the pickn'pull. :D It does have a rapping sound in that vicinity that developed recently....so maybe death is near....my sister only drives about 60-70 miles a week at most, and the fastest she goes is 55....so it will probably cling to life for a while yet.


Same for my lovely's Rav4, it has a "70k" timing belt change interval....it was replaced at 70k...but now it has 143k....we'll see if it holds till we sell the car.

You should do it on the Toyota, they are pretty simple to do. 143k isn't really much for a car like that either, no reason it won't pass 200k.


I hate VW's with a passion, so I'm not going to say anything because it won't be good. But I will say if I am ever forced to get a cheap car it will be a Honda or a Toyota, because at least it won't leak oil and have a billion electrical shorts, and be a total POS. They are actualy designed and built pretty well for cheap cars. I don't understand the point of buying a cheap German car, they have all the issues the good ones have, and none of the enjoyment when they are running right to make up for it. Its like wow I feel like I am driving a poorly designed Civic, wow there goes the speedo again!:rolleyes: Is that smoke! Wow I havn't seen a dashboard short like that since my Grandmothers old Lucus Jag! :rolleyes:

I know the TDI guys were freaking over this ULSD thing because they have rotary pumps that burn out. Good riddence I rather drive a 40mpg gas Civic than one of these junks.

I got the pleasure to get up close in personal with a 97 Passat VR6 over the weekend, junk, junk, junk, I wish it was a V6 Camry. Everything is freaken plastic and breaks, all the door handles are broke, the wiring is all exposed and shorting out, all the coolant lines are cheap plastic and snapping. I touched the crank case vent and it snapped off, touched!:mad: That car is a freaken joke, I wouldn't pay a $1 for it. You have to pull the freaken engine to change the chains, which supposidly need changing every 100k, and you almost need to pull the damn thing to change the serp belt. They seem to have used a similer T chain design that Jag did on their early V8's, so super crappy. Sure as heck makes me appreciate how the mount a V6 in a good car, like an E320. An E320 is about a million times simpler to service. Everything is right on top or in front and easy to get at, none of the plastic breaks, and you never have to mess with the T chains. Considering the Passat probably cost damn near what an E320 cost in 1997...all I have to say to the original owner is sucka! :D

Oh wow I kind of ranted a bit!:D Sorry I got the pleasure of messing with a VR6 this weekend and it just reminded me oh how much I hate these things.

My lovely wants a bug/golf/jetta tdi for the high mpgs....but I insist she go with a 190d 2.2 or 2.5 diesel instead, as it will be everlastingly easier to work on and would probably break faaar less often. No timing belt! She vastly prefers automatics to manuals, and it seems auto-tdi's are hard to find/super expensive anyways. Her current Rav4, while a reliable car (currently, though its had about 5 weird issues in the 3 months she's driven it) is a death trap on wheels. I don't want to get a call someday about an accident where the car's safety let her down. In a 190d she'd be far safer. If the $$ is sufficient someday I will probably get her like a 1998 C220 or something, as she likes those also. Heck you can get a fairly low miles C220 for less than a tdi VW costs! I'll take the MB!

The Rav4's timing belt is no easier to replace than the caravan, maybe slightly, but not by much....I've got the haynes manual, and it looks like a major PITA. Shop to do it is about $750-800, So thats a no-way....especially since my wish would be to have it disappear by the end of summer....maybe it will break before then. Its a manual trans, and the manual isn't perfect anymore either at 143k, the syncros don't mesh as well, and it is finicky about shifting sometimes, especially in the cold. (has brand new M1 Syn gear oil in it...so thats not the issue) It also has the Engine light on now for a failing/failed O2 sensor....and it doesn't like getting wet (struggled to hold idle after car wash) and randomly doesn't idle properly in general (stalls) due to a faulty idle control valve, which is $200...no thanks. Its mileage is poor-to very poor for a car of its size....it only weighs 2300lbs with a 2.0 4cyl, and gets 18-21mpg. Thats it...with a manual, driven gently!!! It has no sound insulation, unless you count the dash itself and the floor mats! And it rev's to 3200 at 70mph on the freeway. Can you say "loud whiny gasser engine"...because thats what it sounds like. Though its dulled by the ROAR of the road....its 2-3x as loud as my car at the same speed, and mine has a straight pipe!

Ok, done with Rav4 rant. :D :D

Bait thread? Hrmmphhhhhhhhhhhh
 

I was really looking at a TDI. When I came back on this forum I swear I would behave myself.
Heh heh, now that I've already been convicted of bait threading, wait till I really get cooking when i come out of my midlife slump in a month or two..

Then you will see threads like "Wouldnt it be more fun to be rich and play golf and sneer at dieselheads?" or "Why does a six pack make wrenching so much more fun?" Or "have you ever had one too many and worked on your car and tripped all over your tools and extension cords and broken anything? " Or "Does your wife secretly laugh at you?"

I put 75k on a '95 Passat VR6. I changed the serp belt in 20 minutes with a half-dozen tools. I did the timing chains at 135k, same time as the clutch and did the rear main seal while I was in there. No worse than changing the clutch in any other transverse mount FWD car I've ever seen. The engine didn't have to come out, but I did have to drop the transmission. Job would have been easier if I'd dropped the subframe, but I didn't have to do that, and didn't even need an engine lift. The timing chains were in fine shape, but one of the guides was starting to break up, so it made sense. I could have just replaced the guide and reused the chain, I was sure. Comparing to a RWD car like the E320 is a bit unfair - the layout is just easier to maintain on FR than FF. And the price? The '97 Passat MSRP was $21890. The E320 was $45500 in '98, and I can't find the '97 MSRP. A car double the price should certainly be better!

At 143k, none of the door handles were broken. None of the wiring was exposed. None of the coolant lines had broken. It still had the original cat and O2 sensor - compare that to an E320. And the worst tank fuel mileage I ever got was 25MPG. Also, I drove that car for two years after it was sideswiped and then T-boned by a semi and spun across three lanes of traffic into the center divider. I drove it home from that! A junkyard door in the same color bolted right up, and a couple thousand in bodywork fixed the rest - the 'frame' was perfectly straight, all the energy had gone into the panels.

The car wasn't perfect, but I sold it because I got tired of being too tall for the car, not because it was worn out. In fact, that was almost three years ago and it's still driving around now.

I'm not saying VWs are faultless - I really do prefer my E300 to the Passat. The Passat stranded me twice, too: once when the crank sensor went out, once when the fuel pump died. But it would also push through six inches of snow with Blizzaks on, was a kick to fling around twisties going up mountain roads in Humboldt County, regularly returned 28MPG in mixed driving, had comfortable seats, looked not out of place pretty much anywhere, didn't leak or burn oil with 143k on it ... and I love the sound of that VR6 engine.

Horses for courses, eh? There are badly maintained VWs, and there are badly maintained Mercedes. But I see examples of both running around far longer than any American cars! Of course, the VW will have plastic trim breaking off, and the Mercedes will have no cruise. What's one to do? Meh.

Btw, Hatt: on those broken door handles, if you pull them out (one screw! One connector also for the driver's side front) you will see the problem is a friction-fit roll pin. You can replace it with a sleeve and a narrow screw, with a little Loctite they never need to be touched again. You will see what I mean if you look at how the assembly works. Any decent junk box should be able to come up with the parts to fix it.

How's that old Benz odometer? The digital one on the Passat is unlikely to break ... of course, it rolls over at 300k. Oops!

I currently have a 350sdl and 06.5 jetta tdi.

I have owned many 123s and consider them one of the best cars of all time.

You cannot compare a true gps 50mpg car to anything else right now w/ fuel at 3~4 dollars/gal.:rolleyes::mad:

I see many tdi's w/ over 300K miles on them and many more 123s w/ odos broken at or above that mark.

The 123s have better fit and finish by many miles, but there are no new 123s so my vote goes to the vws. Safety is hard to judge but I rank the 126 (mass wins usually) above the tdi and the tdi above a 123 (a 123 saved me and my family's lives from a redlight running broadside by a pickup).

Maintenance is actually less time consuming in the vw. Oil at 10K, timing belts at 100K and the rest a relative wash except for the valve adjustments on 617s. The vws don't 'sweat' or 'mark' so it's usually a cleaner process as well. I have never owned a manual tranny MB so I 'd say the vw tranny is easier to maintain. There seems to be a lot of grumbling from the vw owners w/ dsg when it comes to fluid change time.

The largest factor for me is driving fun. The vw (ok I had it chipped to 150hp & 250T)) will spin 1st and 2nd gears and handles like a modern car and gives me a clutch (123s w/ clutches require prayers at mergiing time IMHO).

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the TDI, I would probably buy one for my kids to beat on if it was cheap enough. However, I would consider it completely disposable and wouldn't put any effort in preserving it. It's just a car, not as much of an appliance as a ricer, but I don't think I would lose any sleep over running one into the ground.

Diesels are interference engines... if the timing belt breaks the engine is toast (think broken valves, camshaft, maybe pistons, etc). :eek:

You need to check to see if they are interference engines. Some gassers are and some aren't. If they are *not* interference engines you'll just coast to the side of the road if it breaks... if it *is* an interference engine... the same problems from a diesel will happen.

Everyone needs to remember that even though we like our TDI, due to my wife's 40 mile trek to work each day, the car is assembled in MEXICO, and has a POLISH made engine in it. German design, questionable assembly.

We have not had any trouble with the TDI at this point. The first one 05.5 Jetta TDI kept my wife and step daughter safe in a 40 mph head on with a Hyundia Sonata, Both cars were totaled, but only the VW was able to open and close all doors.

Good point, but I assume this car is just transportation for you so if it works, it works. For a "real" car, i wouldn't buy anything built in north america.

VW...great mileage but!
 

Prior to my 123, I had a 1990 TD (the IDI one). I owned it for one full year of pain. Nothing but pain. Yes I would smile everytime I filled up, but there was always something wrong with it.

I really haven't owned the Benz a full year yet, but so far, geez, all I really do is fill up and drive! It doesn't rattle over the railway tracks, and gets poor mileage when compared to the VW, but everything works, there's hardly any smoke (at least less than the vw) and I like to call it my little stealth bomber ;) because everytime some idiot tailgater comes up really close I could just floor it and leave him in a cloud of smoke wondering where the hell did that old Merc go! In the vw, I'd floor it and just get the smoke :rolleyes:

In summary, my experience shows so far that the vws are great engines, just that all the other parts around the engine tend to fail really easily :eek:

The Benz? It just keeps on ticking....and its the first car I've owned where I actually like washing it :D

Yep, just transportation, but the Jetta is a much more comfy ride than the Altima it replaced, plus it gets 47-50 mpg on the highway.

My wife absolutely loves her TDI. I love my old 300D.

Yes to all the above!!!

What if you do not like golf? It's more fun to sneer at the non diesel heads. Rich and sneer at non diesel heads would be great. Just need a single winning lotto ticket...

They weren't designed as taxi cab engines, either.

Thanks I'll remember that. The ODO on my Jetta is digital and is broke along with the speedo. But if I hit the radio it will work for a bit. The ODO in the MB is dead nuts as always.

That car must have been beat or something, she has only driven it for 3 months? Add another 1k to that btw, the old Rav's weighed more than that. My old 93 Camry has near 200k miles on it now and still runs like a top. I did the T belt in a few hours and it really wasn't that difficult. Around here shops charge $300-$400 to do them and make out.

You should get her a new Impala. I know someone who goes to the auctions that the dealers buy from. He was buying clean 2007-08 Impala's from company fleets for like $10k-$11k. Those still use the 3.8 with GM's 4spd, damn reliable and cheap to fix cars.